[kaoken]

Originally Posted by danslak

Yes, I agree to an extent. First, the various forms of a verb I don't see as grammar, which I think you might. That's fair. But consider: 'ikimasu' and ikimashou are 2 different words with several meanings, including full sentences in english.

BUT YES you can drop grammar and people will still understand you. We do it in english every day. BUT again, if you know the meanings of words grammar becomes second nature. It's how we learn as children; No child starts off with grammar. If they want milk, they say "milk", then "me milk", then eventually "I'd like some milk please". This happens intuitively in children as well as adults. Obviously, adults can make these jumps faster to grammar (while children retain more over their lifetime). Often students get drowned in grammar, killing any passion for the language.

Pimsleur teaches the approach you support, and students come away with a very good grounding in grammar, but are sorely lacking in vocabulary. But even the pimsleur approach doesn't really stop to explain grammar, yet people do learn it. It's excellent in that way, taking the way our brains learn language into account. If the Pimsluer way works for Oz as it does for most people, he should go for it. Just know you'll need a big stack of vocabulary cards after you've finished all three levels, and there's nothing wrong with that.

It takes about 2000 words of vocabulary to read a daily newspaper. Really, that's not much to learn (unless of course it's Kanji). But on the other hand, very few experienced speakers of Japanese can tell me the grammatical difference between "wa" and "ga" and "o" for example, but simply have a feel for the uses, and tend to use them correctly. I've never seen a text book explain this clearly either, as there are historical reasons for usage that make no sense. Too, if you try to explain something like an adjectival noun to an english speaker, their eyes glaze over, as there is no real connection to english, as we use adjectives. But if you know the word for hansamu and otoko and hear "na" in-between them, it's simple. hansamu na otoko: "A handsome man". In text books and even on this site, there are translations of subjects that more often than not don't apply in real life Japanese, but are correct grammatically, so students are taught this day in day out: Watashi wa suki desu has been translated here and in text books as "I like it." More accurately, this should be used emphatically as in [what, you don't like cheese cake? well] I LIKE IT! Seems pretty pushy for a japanese person, doesn't it? A japanese person would probably say something like "chizu keki NO HO GA suki desu." or "I like/prefer cheese cake". To use "I like it": "do you like cheese cake?" "e, suki desu."-- "yes, I like it." So is watashi wa suki desu grammatically correct? Yes, but you'll rarely hear it. Students get taught all sorts of grammar that doesn't apply. If you call your boss "anata" YOU in japan, don't expect that promotion! Also, text books will assume you will never make a japanese friend. It's all taught in PL3 or worse PL4 speech. Good Lord, the only time I've ever heard "Watakushi": "I" (PL4) was in a movie where the character was talking to the Emperor! Yet, watakushi is in half the text books I thumb through. Really, what's wrong with learning "boku" and "atashi"?! In fairness, the Yesjapan.com online course does teach common PL2 usage. Something that is extremely rare in other courses.

I'm not saying don't learn grammar, but don't make it the be all end all of learning any language that most text books throw at students. After all, you can't say anything if you don't know the word for it. Sorry, but a language, any language, IS its vocabulary. You do have a dictionary, right? Darn, those things are full of vocabulary... in every language. Could you even begin to study a language without one?

In the end, whatever method you choose, you WILL plateau. So you'll need to change the way you learn to keep moving forward. Lastly, then I'll stop my rant, learn kana as early as possible. Seeing japanese words in kana will make them MUCH easier to pronounce correctly.

Thank you for that insightful rant But seriously I have to agree with you about children learning simple words first. I've never seen it from that perspective before.

About the textbooks, I've never seen watakushi before haha. But to the defense of these textbooks, they are merely teaching grammar. Like your example "私は好きです。” Teaches you important grammar rules like placement of subject, particle, adjective, and copulas.

I agree that vocabulary is important but where do you start? You don't just find a dictionary and start at A, err this case あ and go down the list. Rather, you should learn the vocabulary as you see them in sentences. In this way you get a grasp of the grammar and also learn new vocabulary. For example just start out with reading a book at your level and dissect the book sentence by sentence.

If you prefer to study from a decent textbook go through it section by section. The textbook I learned from was the nakama series. I felt the way they taught was very structured.