Incest and Gay Love.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Why would you want to or need to find men sexually attractive?
I am basing my opinion on the fact that homosexuality is "wrong". This is why a person would need to get over those urges in the first place.

Exactly. If homosexuality is a choice, why would anyone make that choice? That's the fundamental question no one is able to answer.

Yes, if you are born gay and are taught to believe that homosexuality is wrong, then you 1) are going to be torn up inside and 2) find the need to "switch teams" and try to become straight.

I am saying that I could never turn gay, so turning straight for a gay person must be a very difficult battle.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Ya, only girls for you. Sexuality is what you find attractive and whatever wants to make you procreate.

So is masturbation the same as pedophelia and beastiality?
The goal of masturbation isn't procreation.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

That is why things such as beastiality or pedophilia is the same as homosexuality or even heterosexuality because at the end of the day, it is only what turns you on. Are you saying there is no hope for a rapist before he commits rape or anyone else with WRONG sexual urges, to go and get help and control their urges?
In that case, potential rapists and pedophiles should be locked up as soon as they have been identified!

The difference between rapists and pedophiles versus homosexuals is very simple. Rapists and pedophiles violate other people. Homosexuals don't. Rape and sex with children are criminal acts. Consensual sex between a man and a man isn't.

And no potential rapists or pedophiles should not be locked up. Everyone has fantasies. Some guys like Asian girls. Some guys like big butts. Fantasies aren't criminal. It's when you act on them you are criminal. If they think they can't help but act on them, then they need therapy, but I think it is hard to regulate what one is sexually attracted to.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

If I answer this, I want to know what your reason for asking me this very simplified question is. It has no purpose whatsoever because it only goes to prove something which you have devised.
However, Yes, in your world where only two couples exist and where the hetero couple is not going to be around for the child, I would allow the Lesbian couple to adopt.
That is assuming that the hetero couple are not willing to change their ways either because in your world, they probably can't

Thank you. I just wanted to see if you were really that heartless, and I am glad the answer is no.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

As for explaining this supposedly "very real world situation" to a child, why should I have to? At the end of the day I know what's better for a child than he/she does based on years more experience and knowledge.
Seriously, say that child or someone grows up, do you think if they are abnormal in some way that they are naturally aware of this? It takes a lot of trial and error usually for someone who hasn't had the right upbringing, to figure out how to fit into society or whether to accept how they are.
It can lead to a total social outcastness, depending on what values they have been instilled with. So ya, in your case a Lesbian couple would be better than to give the child to no couple at all.

Right upbrining? Can that only be done by a straight couple? Do they have to be of the same race, too?

In my experience, the kids that are social outcasts tend to be from very (maybe TOO normal) homes. It's the kids with some variety in their home life that have learned to adapt to different situations.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Because they CHOSE to be together rather than be able to conceive normally.

Right. So why would anyone who wanted to be a mother CHOOSE to live in a situation where she couldn't conceive.

Again the unanswerable question rears its ugly head.

[Bojan]

To be honest, I don't think that they are normal. Homosexualism is a sickness in my opinion. But I don't have anything against them.

Are homo-marriages allowed in Japan?

[AmbeRz]

Originally Posted by Bojan

To be honest, I don't think that they are normal. Homosexualism is a sickness in my opinion.

Thats really nasty. :|

Anyway, incest creeps me out...gays dont xD...I have gay friends and I love them to death. Being gay is a normal thing to me, they were born like that and they cant help the way they feel and homophobes are one of the things I hate the most. -.-

I dont understand how gay love and incest could be compared o.o

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by MMM

Exactly. If homosexuality is a choice, why would anyone make that choice? That's the fundamental question no one is able to answer.

Yes, if you are born gay and are taught to believe that homosexuality is wrong, then you 1) are going to be torn up inside and 2) find the need to "switch teams" and try to become straight.

Alright i've already said why they would choose their particular path. It is the same why a rapist rapes and a murderer murders. Consent is not an issue because it is the act we are talking about. Who gives consent and who is unwilling is irrelevant. A person can choose to have sex with another male or they can choose to get over that urge and follow the path which is natural. It is a choice.
Why do people make that choice if it has so many negatives associated with it? Because like the murderer, rapist, child molestor or person who over eats, the homosexual is weak. He/She has given in to his/her urges.

Originally Posted by MMM

I am saying that I could never turn gay, so turning straight for a gay person must be a very difficult battle.

My point was that you are straight so your issues in life are different to a gay person. A gay person will control their urges and that is their test. A straight mans test is to not over indulge in sex. A rich mans test is to abstain from arrogance and stay humble and so on. Obviously each person has more tests than those, like we all do.

Originally Posted by MMM

So is masturbation the same as pedophelia and beastiality?
The goal of masturbation isn't procreation.

Neither is it of Homosexuality or any other form of sexual deviancy
I meant "whatever makes you procreate" because from the perspective of your body you are getting aroused and getting ready to procreate.
That might be your intention or not but again, we are arguing about the act of sexual intercourse being wrong.

Originally Posted by MMM

The difference between rapists and pedophiles versus homosexuals is very simple. Rapists and pedophiles violate other people. Homosexuals don't. Rape and sex with children are criminal acts. Consensual sex between a man and a man isn't.

Once again, whether consent is given or not I am talking about the act of sexual intercourse in any form other than heterosexuality, being wrong. It has nothing to do with who gives consent or not. The act itself is wrong. Obviously if an animal or a child or anyone else is taken advantage of, that adds an extra dimension to what is wrong.

Originally Posted by MMM

And no potential rapists or pedophiles should not be locked up. Everyone has fantasies. Some guys like Asian girls. Some guys like big butts. Fantasies aren't criminal. It's when you act on them you are criminal. If they think they can't help but act on them, then they need therapy, but I think it is hard to regulate what one is sexually attracted to.

It is hard to regulate but in the form of pedophilia or anything else, therapy is crucial. Do you disagree?
It is made worse by the fact that society is inundated with lewdness everywhere.

Originally Posted by MMM

Right upbrining? Can that only be done by a straight couple? Do they have to be of the same race, too?

In my experience, the kids that are social outcasts tend to be from very (maybe TOO normal) homes. It's the kids with some variety in their home life that have learned to adapt to different situations.

I think you pretty much know what I mean by right upbringing. You are just picking at my wording now
By right upbringing I mean those who have had the values instilled by both the mother and father. They also need to be cared for of course, in the way that a child should be. It makes no difference whether the same race brings up that child or not. As long as a child has his confidence and encouragement and sense of morals in place, it should have a fair start at life.
Ever read the un-Disneyfied version of the Jungle Book? People can learn a lot about the values that Mowgli learns from his wolf parents, just from this collection of fictional stories. He has trouble interacting and whatnot and in the end he is alone in having to figure out what is accepted by "humans" as normal behaviour.
Sure it isn't the most scientific way to figure out how a child may end up when without proper support from parents but it has some pretty imaginative logic.

Originally Posted by MMM

Right. So why would anyone who wanted to be a mother CHOOSE to live in a situation where she couldn't conceive.

Again the unanswerable question rears its ugly head.

I believe i've answered this unanswerable question earlier on.
The Lesbian wants to bake her cake and eat it all too

[Slushy]

I have no problem with gays and comparing it to incest is just wrong, but I believe if you find love with someone thats your same sex is fine with me and if some how you love your brother or sister in some other way uh.... get some help.....no no but seriously who cares shouldn't it be the person problem, how he or she feels about another person I mean I'm a bi and I never got judged the way that teacher did to those student. If that happened to me I would of told a principle or do something. I mean that teacher should get fired for what he did and do a public apology for upsetting the student like he did. I mean what the hells wrong with him. Thats just my opionion. Hope no one got hurt after class....

[MMM]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Alright i've already said why they would choose their particular path. It is the same why a rapist rapes and a murderer murders. Consent is not an issue because it is the act we are talking about. Who gives consent and who is unwilling is irrelevant. A person can choose to have sex with another male or they can choose to get over that urge and follow the path which is natural. It is a choice.
Why do people make that choice if it has so many negatives associated with it? Because like the murderer, rapist, child molestor or person who over eats, the homosexual is weak. He/She has given in to his/her urges.

You guys can't have it both ways. One one side you say "Homosexuality is a choice" and then now you say it is an "Homosexuality is an urge" that they can't supress.

My heterosexuality is an urge I cannot supress, too. Choice has nothing to do with it.

Homosexuality is the same way. It's what is natural for that person. No one would choose to be homosexual by free will. Why would they? There is no benefit and only negatives. Murder and rape are not lifestyles, they are acts of passion and are usually accompanied by some BENEFIT for the actor. Same with child molestors. I don't need to repeat my argument on why homosexuality and murder are different things. It's a few pages back, I beleive.

If you want to say "homosexuality is wrong" that is your opinion. I can't help you with that.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

My point was that you are straight so your issues in life are different to a gay person. A gay person will control their urges and that is their test. A straight mans test is to not over indulge in sex. A rich mans test is to abstain from arrogance and stay humble and so on. Obviously each person has more tests than those, like we all do.

You are now getting into a moral argument, which I won't get into. But now you are putting homosexuality in the catagory of one of the seven deadly sins, and it doesn't belong there. All people are tempted by arrogance, glutiny, vanity, greed, etc. I have never been tempted by urges of "homosexuality". Have you? Of course not, because neither of us find men sexually attractive. It isn't a sin in that way (or in any way in my eyes).

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Neither is it of Homosexuality or any other form of sexual deviancy
I meant "whatever makes you procreate" because from the perspective of your body you are getting aroused and getting ready to procreate.
That might be your intention or not but again, we are arguing about the act of sexual intercourse being wrong.

So masturbation is sexual deviancy? Is masturbation wrong? If so, not a lot of people are going to make it into heaven.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Once again, whether consent is given or not I am talking about the act of sexual intercourse in any form other than heterosexuality, being wrong. It has nothing to do with who gives consent or not. The act itself is wrong. Obviously if an animal or a child or anyone else is taken advantage of, that adds an extra dimension to what is wrong.

We just have to agree to disagree. You think the only kind of acceptable sex in the world is between one man and one woman. I don't think so. Any sexual acts between consenting adults (or a consenting hand) is fine by me.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

It is hard to regulate but in the form of pedophilia or anything else, therapy is crucial. Do you disagree?
It is made worse by the fact that society is inundated with lewdness everywhere.

I think people that have insatiable desires to commit criminal sexual acts, like pedophiles, need therapy.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

I think you pretty much know what I mean by right upbringing. You are just picking at my wording now
By right upbringing I mean those who have had the values instilled by both the mother and father. They also need to be cared for of course, in the way that a child should be. It makes no difference whether the same race brings up that child or not. As long as a child has his confidence and encouragement and sense of morals in place, it should have a fair start at life.
Ever read the un-Disneyfied version of the Jungle Book? People can learn a lot about the values that Mowgli learns from his wolf parents, just from this collection of fictional stories. He has trouble interacting and whatnot and in the end he is alone in having to figure out what is accepted by "humans" as normal behaviour.
Sure it isn't the most scientific way to figure out how a child may end up when without proper support from parents but it has some pretty imaginative logic.

Again, in a perfect world a child would be brought up proper by his birth mom and birth dad. This isn't a perfect world, and I believe a lesbian couple can raise a baby just as well as white family can raise a black child.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

I believe i've answered this unanswerable question earlier on.
The Lesbian wants to bake her cake and eat it all too

You keep saying that, but that doesn't answer the question. That's an F.O. answer that avoids the real question.

If I wanted to be a painter, would I choose to break all my fingers? No, of course not. So why would a woman, by free-choice, who want to be a mother CHOOSE to live life with another woman?

The answer you are not willing to give, (but gave in your first paragraph) is that it isn't a CHOICE. She is a lesbian not by choice, but by nature. Her "urge" as you put it. The choice she makes is to not go against what is natural to her and follow your moral standards.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by MMM

You guys can't have it both ways. One one side you say "Homosexuality is a choice" and then now you say it is an "Homosexuality is an urge" that they can't supress.

My heterosexuality is an urge I cannot supress, too. Choice has nothing to do with it.

Homosexuality is the same way. It's what is natural for that person. No one would choose to be homosexual by free will. Why would they? There is no benefit and only negatives. Murder and rape are not lifestyles, they are acts of passion and are usually accompanied by some BENEFIT for the actor. Same with child molestors. I don't need to repeat my argument on why homosexuality and murder are different things. It's a few pages back, I beleive.

If you want to say "homosexuality is wrong" that is your opinion. I can't help you with that.

Now you are putting words to what you've misunderstood.
I never said that I am now calling it an "urge". I said that the URGE makes someone commit an ACT which can be CONTROLLED. Hence, it is a CHOICE.
I hope that makes it clearer for you.
As for rapes and murders with accompanied benefit, isn't that the same as homosexuality or any act of sexual intercourse? The benefit being sexual gratification.
That is ALL it is.
It seems I will have to repeat my argument once again seeing as you don't seem to grasp it.
The act of murder, rape, child abuse etc are all ACTS. Whether they are ACTS of passion or not, the person committing such ACTS still has a choice whether to go ahead with the ACT or not. This is how I am comparing these to ACTS of Homosexuality.
As for suppressing your ACTS of heterosexuality, you can. Ever heard of celibacy?
You only think you can't because you have never tried
There's nothing wrong with Heterosexuality though when done properly since it is the natural way which sexual intercourse should take place.
At the end of the day, all you are arguing about is whether it is right or wrong to seek sexual gratification via the same sex.
I believe it is wrong. It is backed up by the fact that we are not MADE to have sex any other way and that the final result of sexual intercourse from the perspective of our bodies, is to procreate.

Originally Posted by MMM

You are now getting into a moral argument, which I won't get into. But now you are putting homosexuality in the catagory of one of the seven deadly sins, and it doesn't belong there. All people are tempted by arrogance, glutiny, vanity, greed, etc. I have never been tempted by urges of "homosexuality". Have you? Of course not, because neither of us find men sexually attractive. It isn't a sin in that way (or in any way in my eyes).

Huh? Ever heard of Lust? As i've said a few times now, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual, the sex aspect is the same.

Originally Posted by MMM

So masturbation is sexual deviancy? Is masturbation wrong? If so, not a lot of people are going to make it into heaven.

We just have to agree to disagree. You think the only kind of acceptable sex in the world is between one man and one woman. I don't think so. Any sexual acts between consenting adults (or a consenting hand) is fine by me.

And this is why this is a moral argument more than anything else. Does condoning freedom for sexual acts make you immoral?
I guess that's something you'll have to ask and face yourself.

Originally Posted by MMM

Again, in a perfect world a child would be brought up proper by his birth mom and birth dad. This isn't a perfect world, and I believe a lesbian couple can raise a baby just as well as white family can raise a black child.

I'd say the father of the White family raising the Black child would actually instill the discipline that the Lesbian couple could not. Also a sense of honour and how to accept your own identity. There could also be negatives, like how the child learns its prejudices and whatnot but that is in a negative situation. In a positive situation with a lesbian couple vs the normal couple, a normal couple will win out EVERY time.

Originally Posted by MMM

You keep saying that, but that doesn't answer the question. That's an F.O. answer that avoids the real question.

Oh I think it does as outlined earlier.

Originally Posted by MMM

If I wanted to be a painter, would I choose to break all my fingers? No, of course not. So why would a woman, by free-choice, who want to be a mother CHOOSE to live life with another woman?

If you "wanted" to be a painter. You were not "born" a painter. Therefore you don't even have that issue unless you stumble across it by your own design. Why does that analogy even fit here?
If you were born a Lesbian, it is your CHOICE to get into a Lesbian relationship and not be capable of having children naturally. If you want children, be in a heterosexual relationship. Get over the URGES that make you want to perform ACTS of sex with others of the same sex just for your own sexual gratification. Take the natural path that you are meant to take for your sake as for the child.

Originally Posted by MMM

The answer you are not willing to give, (but gave in your first paragraph) is that it isn't a CHOICE. She is a lesbian not by choice, but by nature. Her "urge" as you put it. The choice she makes is to not go against what is natural to her and follow your moral standards.

No that is rather wrong. She is a Lesbian by nature maybe but urges can be controlled. It is her test in life.
Giving into that urge means she is weak.

[MissMisa]

I think Gay's and Lesbian's are great and that they shouldn't supress what is in their heart because of what people think of them. If they want to fuck then that is okay with me, it's none of my business anyway.

Rape is totally different, it's an unconsented violation of someones personal rights. Beastiality is just, completely uncomparable to a gay relationships altogether.

Sex isn't just for pro-creation, it's an expression of love too. Why should that be denied from people who just happen to love someone of the same gender? I don't think it should.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I think Gay's and Lesbian's are great and that they shouldn't supress what is in their heart because of what people think of them. If they want to fuck then that is okay with me, it's none of my business anyway.

Rape is totally different, it's an unconsented violation of someones personal rights. Beastility is just, completely uncomparable to a gay relationships altogether.

Sex isn't just for pro-creation, it's an expression of love too. Why should that be denied from people who just happen to love someone of the same gender? I don't think it should.

You haven't read anything i've written or you'd be arguing the points that i've made to everything you've just said

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

You haven't read anything i've written or you'd be arguing the points that i've made to everything you've just said

I have actually read everything.

I just wanted to make a generic summary of my opinions.