Japan intends to distance itself from US (politics)

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by kirakira

And how is this different from US and UK during industrial revolution?

Because this is 2009, and the world is supposed to learn from it's mistakes, not repeat them.

[Sangetsu]

Originally Posted by MMM

But they also have some of the greatest gaps between rich and poor, and the average salary in China is still far below Japan and the US. The policies may be great, but on whose backs are those policies resting?

And you answered my question Sangetsu. Japanese politicians may decide they want to align with China and Korea, but are China and Korea waiting with open arms?

Besides the fact that China and Korea are not large importers of foreign goods. They are producers and exporters, what can Japan expect to gain by allying with China or Korea? The state of California is a larger consumer of Japanese goods than China or Korea.

[cridgit001]

I have read and watch some shocking documentaries that goes on in China whether it be the near slavery conditions, towns that are almost buried in soot from the coal factories, and the 3 Gorges Dam that caused 2 million people to be transplanted from their homes not to mention all the 10s if not 100s of thousands of artifacts that were lost because it was "better" for the country. I don't have a problem with people wanting to better themselves whether it be a town or a country, but going after a "better life" with no regard to human collateral will not fly.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Because this is 2009, and the world is supposed to learn from it's mistakes, not repeat them.

Who are the ones doing this though? The companies in the west. You got to separate political idealogy with economic reality.

This is also directed at MMM:

It's not that simple when you trying to manage 1/4 of humanity. There is a inverse correlation between efficiency and equality when it comes to economic growth (1st basic economics). The model China has taken 30 years ago is:

Given so many people are poor, we might as well increase effiency first at the cost of equality so we can achieve double digit growth. Sure someone will be filthy rich but the poor will still be better off.

Right now the government has realised that the income disparaty between city dwellers in the east cost and the country side is great, and also income in the west part of China and the east coast is also increasing so it has taken measures including:
- Invest in the west compagne
- Abolition of 5000 year old agriculture tax
- Focus on primary/secondary education for the countryside
- Not a single dollar of tax is collected in Tibet

etc.

China is also taking this economic crisis as an opportunity to pour more money into infrastructure ($800bn US), and has just announced a xxx billion (forgot the figure) health package to address the growing health system problem.

China is still poor, for sure, but damn I don't think the west could have done any better than what the current government does in terms of economic policy even if they took over.

Things take time, you can't expect a country with average income 30 yrs ago of next to nothing to become Japan/USA overnight. But China is not stupid either.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Besides the fact that China and Korea are not large importers of foreign goods. They are producers and exporters, what can Japan expect to gain by allying with China or Korea? The state of California is a larger consumer of Japanese goods than China or Korea.

Sangetsu, you are on drugs. China is Japan's biggest trading partner and 3rd largest importer of Japanese goods (in 2007).

Shanghai has the largest expat Japanese community in the world.

It's not just pocky China buys, it's trains, infrastructure, environmental technology etc. However, these figures are not accurate as many many Japanese firms set up subsidiary and produce goods locally (and selling local), including Avex, who is importing Chinese talent into Japan these days.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

To me, switching from US worship to China worship is leaping from the frying pan into the fire. There is no big advantage as long as you`re being burnt. Something needs to change, I agree, but I don`t agree that this is the best path to take. Especially when China is calling for Japan to make huge tribute... *cough* Oops, I meant financial aid contributions *cough* when Japan is in absolutely no economic shape to do so.

Well the article says that Japan will move towards a more multilateral foriegn policy not towards China worship.

Multilateral means that it will establish itself within relationships between itself and ALL it's neighbours... not just China and South Korea. Other significant regional powers include Australia, Malaysia and Indonesia.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Sangetsu

Untrue. Superficially, such policies changes may be enacted, but there will be no substance to them. The reason is mainly cultural. Japan does have ties to Korea and China, but Japan's relationship with America is unique.
First and foremost, this relationship is based upon a respect that began with the arrival of Commodore Perry and his Black Ships, and which was then reaffirmed when Japan was defeated in World War 2, when, once again, American warships arrived in Tokyo.

China and Korea have closer cultural ties to Japan, but their historical relationship is much different. Regardless of what these countries say nowadays, memories of the war still linger, and a sour taste remains. Japan has never been sympathetic to the losses which the Chinese and other Asians endured during the war at Japanese hands, and Japan has never been sympathetic to those whom they defeated, or who surrendered to them.

America is unique in Japanese history as the America is the only country ever to conquer Japan.

Prior to the war, Japan considered their culture to be the most superior in Asia, and likely, the world. Early victories in the war only affirmed their opinion, China suffered repeated defeats, the rest of Southeast Asia was conquered with relative ease, with the European and other imperialists (England, France, Holland, and even America) quickly driven out of their Asian/Pacific colonies.

But this period of victory was brief. America's wartime industrial capacity was staggering, surpassing that of the rest of the world combined. Bombs first fell on Tokyo only 5 months after Pearl Harbor

The end of the war saw life in Japan change dramatically with the Emperor's unconditional surrender. Japan, for all intents and purposes became another American territory. The Japanese could no longer believe that Japan possessed the world's most superior culture, so they embraced the culture of their conquerors.

This unique relationship between Japan and America will not last forever, but it will not die soon. Memories in Asia run much longer and deeper than in other parts of the world. Even now, most Japanese consider America to be a superior country in many ways. And Chinese resentment to Japanese atrocity during the war remains strong. Korea is less animistic, having been conquered many times over the centuries, but Korea is an economic competitor with Japan, vying with other Asian countries for the markets in Europe and Asia.

The current diplo-speak in Japan is mere political rhetoric; politicians love to promise "change" in their campaigns, only to maintain the status quo once they are elected.

Your argument is well reasoned... but how do you explain the fact that relations between Japan and it's neighbours are improving and are better than ever in some instances.

You seem to be counting on historical grievances to blind Japan and it's neighbours to any regional advantages of a thawing in relations in a world where the US is rapidly unable to maintain it's dominance.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well the article says that Japan will move towards a more multilateral foriegn policy not towards China worship.

Multilateral means that it will establish itself within relationships between itself and ALL it's neighbours... not just China and South Korea. Other significant regional powers include Australia, Malaysia and Indonesia.

I know that is what the article says - but it`s not the rhetoric put forth by the political party. In the past, "international" and "multilateral" has only meant "with China and Korea" in their policies. If they are going to make a leap and change this, then great. But I highly doubt it. They`ve shown remarkable ignorance when it comes to anywhere in Asia other than those two countries, and recently when asked about their planned policies in regard to another country (I forget exactly where, unfortunately - I *think* it was Malaysia but am not entirely sure) the speakers were sort of stumped and tried to shift the topic back to China.

I have nothing against reducing the worship of the US and working toward a more balanced international policy... It would probably be a good thing for everyone involved. But I don`t really think that they`re the party to put hopes on for it. The current trend online in Japan is to substitute 特定アジア for every instance of アジア or 世界 in their speeches, as those are the only countries they actually push any policies for.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I know that is what the article says - but it`s not the rhetoric put forth by the political party. In the past, "international" and "multilateral" has only meant "with China and Korea" in their policies. If they are going to make a leap and change this, then great. But I highly doubt it. They`ve shown remarkable ignorance when it comes to anywhere in Asia other than those two countries, and recently when asked about their planned policies in regard to another country (I forget exactly where, unfortunately - I *think* it was Malaysia but am not entirely sure) the speakers were sort of stumped and tried to shift the topic back to China.

I have nothing against reducing the worship of the US and working toward a more balanced international policy... It would probably be a good thing for everyone involved. But I don`t really think that they`re the party to put hopes on for it. The current trend online in Japan is to substitute 特定アジア for every instance of アジア or 世界 in their speeches, as those are the only countries they actually push any policies for.

Ah OK.

I know nothing of Japanese politics other than from an outside perspective.

I agree... movement toward China or Korea worship would not be good.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

To me, switching from US worship to China worship is leaping from the frying pan into the fire. There is no big advantage as long as you`re being burnt. Something needs to change, I agree, but I don`t agree that this is the best path to take. Especially when China is calling for Japan to make huge tribute... *cough* Oops, I meant financial aid contributions *cough* when Japan is in absolutely no economic shape to do so.

What do you mean by tribute? ODA? Japan stopped that ages ago.

But then again, China's being asking Japan to give tribute for almost 2000 years now, old habits die hard (汗.