"The Cove" discussion

[kMal]

Originally Posted by minminRW

Ryzorian,
Thanks for your suggestion.
But I do not think that breeding is more ethical than hunting.

I agree. That way you will be able to sustain a certain "population" and leave the wild life alone.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

Ronin4hire,
You are using too many excuse such as "whatever","after all"or"it is not a valid argument" to continue logical discussion.

Because your pointing these facts out is not relevant to the position I'm taking.

Originally Posted by minminRW

You have not proved anything. Almost all mammal may have self-consciousness.

Dolphins definitely have it. Whales display signs of it. All other mammals may be self aware... but they do not display such signs. This is a scientific fact.

Originally Posted by minminRW

No there are many committee or agreement for natural conservation. (UNEP, UNCLOS, ITLOS, etc. )
This fact prove "Exploiting a loophole" of Anti-whaling country.

They would come to the same conclusion also. What's your point? Whatever forum you enter I'm pretty sure that most of the International community would be against Japanese commercial whaling.

Originally Posted by minminRW

I said Anti-whaling country must leave.
You are just saying that Japan is under American hegemony.(I agree to it.)

Anti-whaling countries have every right to be in the forum in my opinion. I think everyone who has a vested interest in the protection of the ocean should be allowed in the forum.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Japan needs whale meat sustainably, you do not need to worry about.

>(because of whaling lobby groups).
You are saying Japanese people are brutal and anti-democracy, Are you all right?

Japan whaling industry needs profit.

And where did I say Japanese people are brutal and anti-democracy? Lobby groups are worst in the United States of America. I've already given you an example of the Israeli lobby group restricting the ability of the US government to put pressure on Israel to halt settlements in the Gaza strip for example (Hopefully Obama can change that). Lobby groups are a flaw of capatalist societies. Japan AND the West are all capitalist societies. Money is power. So I'm criticising the West in the exact same way when I refer to lobby groups.

Originally Posted by minminRW

Again, this means Japan is under American hegemony.

In a broader sense yes. In the forum of nations that is the IWC... Japan has a vote.

Originally Posted by minminRW

I have found you are racist because you take Japanese as "Economic animal".

I found you are stupid because you cannot distinguish that I'm talking about the whaling industry and not Japanese people. Industry exists to make a profit first.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by minminRW

>via traditional means
This is bloodier way than advanced whaling.

You have not proved that bowhead whales are safe.
They might exist only under 10,000. USA hunts them over 50 every year.
Is it safe? I do not think so.

First of all, traditional means may be bloodier, but advanced methods are more damaging to the population. Second of all my main argument has nothing to do with the respect I have for whales. I protest that simply but not eating whale meat. When I go to Japan again this year I will refuse to eat whale.

Originally Posted by minminRW

As for Islamic society.
Your opinion indicates typical behavior of western people. That is dogmatic, self-righteous, and pragmatic.
You can give them some suggestion, but you must not force them to hold by your opinion.
Immigrants live in your territory, we are discussing on Japanese territory and international sea.

Who is the racist? You just said that Westerners are typically dogmatic and self-righteous?

Culture and tradition are never excuses for irrational behaviour was my point. Culture, tradition, religion... these are merely ideas. If an idea is irrational then it must be disposed of. This happens in all cultures, Western culture too (Christianity is declining in all of the Western world and has been declining since the 16th century, In fact the only place it has any real power is in the United States but even there it's declining).

I've already said that I don't mind if Japanese hunt whale in their own territory (like the Inuit in the USA).

But the open sea does not belong to Japan. It belongs to everyone in the International community. Therefore what happens in the open sea should be decided by International consensus. Without that then the ocean is doomed.

[Ryzorian]

Why should "open" sea be group consensus? Nobody else hunts whales much, so why would the rest give two hoots? Open sea means "open". Self awareness has been demonstrated by Indian elephants and rare dogs, yet I don't see anyone gathering placecards for the dogs eaten in where ever they are eaten at. Besides, whales have a tendency to beach themselves and sufficate in mass..they can't be the brightest things around. Dollars to donuts octopus are smarter than some whales.

MinMinRW, I don't mean breeding as some kind of experiement..I ment implamenting a farm system for whales, like the US does for catfish. Allthough like I said, not sure how atainable that would be, considering the type of upkeep needed for whales.

I'm sure alot of fishing, whaleing and general food produce is generated for profit, not seeing the problem there. I suppose I could see a potential problem area if whales weren't managed well, I can concur with that.

MinMinRW, heh, least folks just get upset with Japan for whales and a couple other things. American's take flack for everything from global warming, geopolitical antics across every country, to the sun going supernova. If it's a disaster, it's America's fault somehow. I'm sure American influence plays into somethings around the globe, but I doubt we had anything to do with why leaves turn red on some trees and not on others.

[minminRW]

Ronin4hire,
I have found you cannot discuss logically.

I had showed you below.
-The IWC scientific committee said that there was no problem in resuming commercial whaling.
-IWC is not appropriate committee for banning whaling. So Anti-whaling countries are exploiting a loophole.
-Japan is still under Western hegemony.(You said "American" but it is same for me.)
-Traditional whaling practiced by USA is crueller and more dangerous for nature than modern one.

You have not answer below.
-The reason that Whales and dolphins are more intelligent than other mammals.
"Signs"you said are not found in official committees including IWC.
-The reason that Anti-whaling countries act in IWC instead of UNEP etc.
-The reason that you insist "traditional whaling" by USA is sustainable.
-Why Japanese modern whaling is not "Traditional".
-Why modern people must not eat whale meat.

As for "territorial water"and "international water"
-"The Cove"movies are picked up dolphin hunting in Japan.(This is bloody but traditional.)
This may be main problem of this thread.
-Japan is still inhibited whaling even in Japanese territory.
-International water does not belong to any country. All countries have rights equally. Japan and other whaling country have the right of whaling under certain control.

You said "We have the interest of the environment on our side. Your side just wants to make money."
Though I did not said about money in this discussion, you said that.
It indicates that you look down on Japanese as greed animal.
I said Anti-whaling NPOs are getting huge donation in the name of that.
I think your saying is just plain rude.

[minminRW]

Ryzorian,
Thank you for your advice.
I do not expect Anti-whale activist to change their mind.
I just thought someone should post here as standings of Japan and scientific fact about whaling.
I will not post so much anymore bacause my opinion had posted very well.

BTW, I do not know about farm system of US. What is it? Is it defferent from breeding?

[burkhartdesu]

I live in Alaska were Inuit people hunt whales... and they do it in coastal waters.


Sure, the international waters belong to everyone -- but that doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want.

[minminRW]

Originally Posted by burkhartdesu

I live in Alaska were Inuit people hunt whales... and they do it in coastal waters.

Sure, the international waters belong to everyone -- but that doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you want.

>Japan and other whaling country have the right of whaling under certain control.

And these control must be managed scientifically.

[Ryzorian]

MinMinRW; I guess it would be raiseing animals for the specific purpose of meat products or what have you, wool from sheep for instance. Yes you breed them to multiply but it's basically farming. We have catfish farms in the US as well as aligator farms, even mink farms I think, though thats probably a questionable practice itself.

That's what I ment when I was saying whale farming, like raisieng a heard of cows on land, someone could raise a pod of whales off shore. It wasn't advice from me so much as just an idea. Afterall, flying was an idea before it was a practice.

[burkhartdesu]

Whales have important migration instincts that would make it impossible to raise them completely in a "farm".


Just like you couldn't create farm-Salmon (though they have "hatcheries", they set them free to begin migration)