'The End of Hope and Change'
 

Here is the source.

Hm, Going to jail if I choose not too put money in health care that I, a healthy American, wouldn't use much . . .If I end up needing to in the future, I hope it doesn't cost much . . .In any case . . .it will be very interesting to see what the world would be like if this bill passed. I read atleast 200 comments of people stating their opinions, most making it seem like the world will end if this bill is passed . . .I rather pay higher taxes than die or watch others die because of the outcomes . . .

I apologize if this sounds ignorant.

No one needed to print such an article as most people are aware of the facts. Troops are still in Iraq and Afghanistan, and military spending on both wars is now higher than it was when Bush was in office. Guantanamo is still open, and there is no knowing when it will finally close. The "stimulus" programs have put our country into incredible debt, while doing little to aid the economy, and rescinded the welfare reform acts begun in the Clinton presidency which were actually very effective.

The "health care reform" program will cost add even more trillions to the debt, while leaving the administration of the program in government hands (and we all know how wonderful the government is at running things), so costs will probably be 2 to 3 times higher than predicted right now.

Obama is well on his way to beating Jimmy Carter as worst American President of all time, but even Carter had higher poll numbers than Obama at this time in his presidency. No president in the history of America has had such low popularity only 1 year into their first term.

We can't forget that before becoming a senator, Obama was a university law professor. For those of you who have spent a lot of time in university, or in the profession of education, law professors usually teach because they are not/cannot be effective lawyers in the real world. There is an old saying "those that can, do, those that can't, teach". A person who has no professional real-world experience cannot be an effective president.

A president is more than just a figurehead. Speeches are just words, regardless of how they sound or how they make you feel. Remember, actions always speak louder than words, and there has been no action whatsoever from President Obama.

A president is supposed to be a leader, the person who sets the agenda of the country, and guides the country along that path. No doubt it's a difficult job, which is the reason why we must be careful in who we pick for the job. The only recent example we have of a strong president is Ronald Reagan. Whether you agreed with his policies or not, he had the personal strength and character to do what he felt had to be done, and he did a remarkable job of getting his agenda across, and accomplishing the things he set out to do.

Of course, the fault does not lie entirely with President Obama. The current system which made the people feel that change was required is the one which needs to addressed. According to the same poll which shows President Obama's disapproval rating exceeding his approval rating also says that 68% of Americans do not plan to vote for any incumbent.

Congress does not want a strong president, they don't want one who will be able to control their choices. They are more than happy with President Obama, but according to polls, people dislike the current congress more than they dislike the president.

If anyone really wants change, they'll have to go to the polls again in November of this year, and not vote for anyone who is in office right now. Our senators and congressmen have been doing nothing to serve the people; they have been serving only themselves at the people's expense. The only way to get change is to show them that the people cannot be fooled all the time (though sadly enough, many can).

A small amount of change has been happening, several senators and congressmen have seen what is coming, and have decided to retire or not to run again in the next election. Hopefully their suspicions are true, and that the people are finally waking up and beginning to care about what is happening in Washington.

Wow, it feels like 2009 all over again.

Dark I am curious what inspired you to post this. It comes from The New Ledger, a group of right wing writers.

If 68% of people said they were not going to vote for incumbents, then no incumbents would be re-elected. We all know that isn't the case.

Here is the question as it was asked by FOX/AP:

If American voters only had the following two choices on the Congressional ballot -- keep all current lawmakers in office, or get rid of all incumbents in Congress -- what would they do?

A new Fox News poll asked that question, and the answer could be bad news for incumbents this fall.

Sixty-eight percent of voters would oust all incumbents, while 20 percent would keep all lawmakers in office.

FOXNews.com - Fox News Poll: 68% Say Vote Out All Incumbents

That is VERY different than saying they plan on not voting for incumbents in coming elections.

When asked if people would think incumbents should be voted out, the majority will say "yes". Ask them if they think THEIR state's representatives shouldn't be re-elected and then the numbers change dramatically. People think OTHER states' bums should be tossed out, but not usually their own.

This is also true of health care reform (or more accurately, health insurance reform).

When asked if people support "ObamaCare" or whatever you want to call it, the majority say "no". But when asked about individual aspects of the bill, the majority do support it. (i.e. Do you support insurance companies not being allowed to deny benefits because of pre-existing conditions?)

FT.com / UK - Final push as data show bill will cut deficit

The chances of President Barack Obama's healthcare legislation being passed this weekend brightened yesterday, when the independent Congressional Budget Office reported that the final bill would cut the US deficit by more than $1,300bn over the next 20 years.

Nonsense.

Once again we are shown more "voodoo" accounting by the the Congressional Budget Office which has an incredibly bad record of accuracy. The deficit will not be "reduced", the amount of increase will be reduced, which still accounts for a net increase in the deficit. And, in order for this "reduction" to occur, the economy must be on track, unemployment at a low level, and costs to not exceed what the Budget Office expects.

The cost of the program will be shouldered by individuals and companies which are already heavily taxed. Why do do you think so many US jobs have been outsourced overseas? Caterpillar yesterday stated that the current health care bill would cost them $100,000,000 in the first year, and that is in addition to what they already pay for health care coverage.

But, they can simply move their manufacturing to China or India, pay 75 cents an hour to their overseas workers and tell the US government to "shove it", as many other companies have been doing in recent years.

It is not the governments job to make our lives better. It is the government's job to make an environment where we can make our own lives better.

$100,000,000 sounds like a lot of money (and it is) but it is an increase of how much for Caterpillar? 1000%, 500%? No, more like 20%. They are already paying $500,000,000 in health care as it is.

After being rejected for several medical procedures in the last year, guess how much my insurance company increased my monthly rate? Yup, just about 20%.

If we were dumping a system that worked for one that didn't, I would be totally against it. But we have a broken system now. 45,000 Americas die every year because they do not have insurance, or their insurance doesn't cover their problems. 2/3 of personal bankruptcies in America are because of health care bills.

How many people in Japan went bankrupt last year because they couldn't pay for their health coverage?

How about in Canada, Germany, France or England?

Now this health care bill will not solve that problem because the fear-mongers have gotten people to believe they would rather have profit-seeking corporations decide if they get health care rather than the government.

But ask those who are on government health care (V.A. MediCare, etc.) if they would rather have a corporation take care of them rather than the government. "Don't you dare touch my VA benefits!" "Don't you dare touch my MediCare!"

So you can call "nonsense" if you want, and you aren't the only one that is rejecting an independent organization's claims about the financial impact of the health insurance reform bill, but you also took the FOX/AP poll above and misinterpreted that, either accidentally or on purpose. The conservative action lately has been "If it doesn't support your view, reject it." This is par for the course.

It is also to be the "party of no" and then call Obama a do-nothing president. There is a reason Obama's approval rating is at 53%, but Congress is at less than half that (22%).

Oh this thread could surely go on for pages.... And the usual quality posts from Sangetsu still give me some hope for the future. The OP post from CBS is quality stuff too.

The jury is out tomorrow. At least it will be over and maybe the liberal democrat dream of a socialistic utopia will be disproven passed or not passed. We will all be able to take the train to work in our soviet like society.

I love the closing arguement from the Prez:

"Don't do it for me. Don't do it for Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid," he said. "Do it for all those people out there who are struggling."

Can the guy even fit his head through the door anymore. Just say it... "Win one for the kipper".

Well, as we all watch Rome burn, lets take a momement to enjoy the simple things in life:
The face that MMM posted from Fox News.

That was just the preliminary CBO Score before the other ammendments and revisions of the bill are taken into account. The final CBO on the actual bill won't be available until well after the vote. The CBO is not required to give a final score on the bill before the vote.


Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

The "face" I think you are talking about is "fact" and if you really want to get excited about the fact that I posted statistics from FOX...

then please look at why all the way through.

I am not trying to overemphasize this issue, but this is typical stylings of those that want to manipulate statistics and polls to work in favor of their argument.

Let's look at facts.

Sangetsu said this:
According to the same poll which shows President Obama's disapproval rating exceeding his approval rating also says that 68% of Americans do not plan to vote for any incumbent.

Let's look at the actual FOX/AP poll:

If American voters only had the following two choices on the Congressional ballot -- keep all current lawmakers in office, or get rid of all incumbents in Congress -- what would they do?

A new Fox News poll asked that question, and the answer could be bad news for incumbents this fall.

Sixty-eight percent of voters would oust all incumbents, while 20 percent would keep all lawmakers in office.

CLEARLY different statistics that are easily manipulated by those that want to.

A and B are not the same.

If this is the modus operandi, then I call BS. This kind of public manipulation is not acceptable and not something that I will step aside and bow down to.

People that are struggling.

That's me, Clint.

Two years ago I paid less than half of what I pay today to give my family health insurance coverage. That's the price I pay for being self-employed. We have health issues, but they are considered "elective" by our insurance company because they are not life threatening. So what am I paying for? Please help me on that.

Literally and seriously, we are using a foreign country's government plan to deal with our medical issues.

What does that say about the state of American public health care?

Sorry to hear that.

You seem to be in the 15% of America's population that is isn't happy with their insurance. Of the other 85% that have health insurance 95% of them are happy with it.

What are you paying for? The sky high price of health care. Insruance companies are only following suites. Insurance should be affordable, which is seems to be for you, but not comfortable. You may be struggling, but like you said, a choice you made to be self employed.

I still say some just won't pay for insurance because they don't think its worth it. But how much are people, self employed, are paying a year in premiums for a family? 8k, 10k? Are you saying, if they had to, they couldn't adjust their life style to meet that requirement? Rent instead of mortgage? Go without cable/satelite, internet (at home), i-phone, extra or newer car(s)? Not have a TV in every other room, with at least one game console and games? Eating out 3 or more times a week. The fact is a majority of Americans do not feel they need tosave or budget anymore and always are keeping up with the neighbors, or an entitlement complex. This is something I rarely see in Japan in contrast; but there are always exceptions.

Sure reform of rising health care costs is needed. The health insruance companies are not true root of the problem. Despite what the prez offered as olive branch to the GOP; that he would look at letting health insurance companies cross state boundaries, Tort reform, etc... it was all talk. Now here we are with a bill where no one knows what is in it

Your point is taken... insurance premiums are insane high in case of personal or small business insurance. This as a result of rising health care costs plus the occasional insurnacne company that is sticking it to the customers for a bigger profit.

Biggests denier of claims in recent years out of all the insurnance companies: Medicare.

Now the governemtn wants to control insurnace companies.

Reform yes, but really, not was is on the hill now.

We can slam articles back and forwarth about how Japan, Canada, France, Denmark etc etc etc are or aren't a socialist health care/insurance utopia and how the US should or shouldn't be more like them. The fact it is apples and oranges. America is a much more populated and dynamic country. We have an illegal immigration problem, we have a broken health care entitlement system that is tried to be fixed by a new larger take over entitlement.

The Obama crowd is promising the American people streets of gold, which we know aren't physically possibly.

I wish you the best of correcting your premium issue. But the kool-aid being offered up isn't going to solve it.



Indeed.

So, Caterpillar's cost increases "only" 20%. Exactly what was Caterpillar's profit margin last year? If it was anything like GM, Chyrsler, or other large companies, they can scarcely afford a 20% increase in insurance costs.

I didn't get my information from the FOX/AP poll, I got it from Gallup.

Who says Obama' approval rating is 53%? Gallup says 48%, Pew says 46%, Rasmussen says 43%, NBC says 48%. With all polls taken into account, Obama's approval rating is 47.2%, and his disapproval rating is 47.8%

And, which party holds the majority in both houses of Congress? Who is really doing nothing? Until a few months ago Obama's party and a decisive advantage in the senate and house, and still no legislation was passed.

Before saying about how 45.000 people in America die each year without insurance, consider that anyone and everyone in America can demand treatment regardless of their ability to pay or insurance status, at any hospital, at any time. Illegal aliens with drug resistant tuberculosis are being treated free of charge (at about $1,000,000 per year, how many illegal aliens get free treatment at UK, Canada, or Japan hospitals?).

Many people in Japan die each year because "free" medical care demands that services are limited. Emergency rooms in most places are not open 24 hours, and even those which are open will not see patients if their day's patient quota is full. And, we mustn't forget the cost, Japan's national debt vs GDP is twice that of America's, which is bad enough. With the current population aging, and fewer childred being born, Japan is headed for hard times. A time will come in the when Japan can no longer afford to pay for it's social programs, what then?

As for the UK, medical services are also rationed. Treatments which can be completed within days in America may require months of waiting in the UK. Those in the UK who have money often travel to the US or other countries to receive treatment rather than wait.

If you live in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, or Texas, pay visit to any major hospital's emergency room and take a look at the patients. Odds are that less than half of them speak English. And perhaps 3/4s of those patients will never pay a penny for their treatment. It will be written off as a loss by the hospital, and recouped from taxpayer money.

A US representative was rebuked some months ago when he yelled "You lie!" when Obama said his health care program would not pay for treatment for illegal aliens. It turns out that Obama did lie, though language was added to the bill which specifically said illegal aliens would not qualify, there is no provision for patients to provide proof of citizenship to qualify for treatments. Typical.

Ask your doctor how much his malpractice insurance is each year. You might be surprised to find that his premiums may be higher than his actual coverage. But of course, tort reform is not part of the current health care reform bill. A patient can sue for millions (and win) in malpractice cases, even if he were to earn less than $1,000,000 over his lifetime in his current profession. Who pays? The doctor? The hospital? The insurance company? Yes, they do, but the costs are then passed on to everyone else.

The cost for treating illegal aliens is staggering. In Florida, state costs are $165,000,000 per year, Georgia spends $210,000,000 per year, in California it's $1.45 billion, Virginia, $98,000,000 per year, Texas and New Mexico, $832,000,000, Minnesota, $35,000,000, etc. etc. The cost to the federal government is difficult to pin down. Is it any wonder why health care is so expensive?

If the people of America didn't have to pay for the medical treatment of 12,000,000 illegal aliens, perhaps enough money would be saved to pay for their own treatment.

If you think the government cares about you any more than a profit-seeking corporation, you've already made a huge mistake.

Also, I posted this because I thought it would be a pretty good argument here.

My point is that the number $100,000,000 is meaningless out of context.

I can scarcely afford my 20% increase as well.

68% incumbents - Google Search

Can you please show your source that says 68% of voters intend to vote out their incumbent elected officials?

It was from the AP about 10 days ago...which is ancient history, I am sure.

Interesting how Republicans lauded the previous present for not leading by polls but by his own values, and then they now criticize the present president for not leading by (their) polls.

And which party set up a system where majority does NOT rule? Why is 60 the magic number instead of 50?

GOP Filibuster Record: Republicans Using Obstruction Tool With Astonishing Frequency

The democrats do not hold an actual majority any longer. These are all things you know, so I really don't need to tell you, but this is for those that may not understand why a Democrat president and a Democratic congress appear to not be able to get anything done. Majority and Minority are not as simple as some would have think.

And consider how those without insurance do not go to the doctor when they are uncomfortable and their issue is treatable, but wait until they are in extreme pain, and go when their condition is untreatable and die.

The access to free coverage in the US by illegals (or by visitors) has nothing to do with your debate...but are you advocating taking health care and not paying for it? Certainly lots of people do that every day. It doesn't help the health care system, as in the end WE all end up paying for it. Wouldn't it be better to have a system where all Americans could get affordable treatment for preventable problems instead of going to the ER when their problem becomes deadly?

I would like to hear more about this. Please quote your sources.

Another interesting prospect. Please give links.

sorta not
 

let's bash the illegal immigrate for the United States health care system that cost the US taxpayer twice what health care systems cost in the E.U. and Canada?
Unless you have hit your head l8tly the latest piece of legislation that will be shoved down the US taxpayers throat was written by the US healthcare Industry itself - not the government. Health Care Industry has reported healthy profits before and during the hubris over the latest National Health Care Pkg. The Health Care Industry has doled out lots of cash and has an army of K street lawyers that descend on Washington like flys .
The total illegal immigrate population in the US hovers roughly at 7.9% of total population and does have a modest impact on healthcare services across the country. But with the knowlege that illegal immigrates use of these services have offsets due to illegal immigrates file and pay taxes. -

WSJ - Bloomberg / 2010

The IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year. Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented workers are estimated to pay in about $7 billion per year into Social Security alone.

Early studies in California and in the Southwest and in the Southeast' on the impact of immigrate households on local and state resources-

Households headed by undocumented immigrants use less than half the amount of federal services that households headed by documented immigrants or citizens make use of.

Translation the US Health Care Industry makes money the old fashion way by 'denying service'. Trying to foist the mishap or how the US health care operates by putting the blame on immigrates does not pass muster - the EU has equal number if not more illegal immigrates and it's healthe care system delivers a superior service for half the cost of what US taxpayer pays USD.

It's true that the Republican party can now stop legislation by filibuster, but that has only been true for a short while since Senator Kennedy's seat was taken by a Republican. But in the year leading up to that time, nothing was done.

And, access to free health care by illegals has everything to do with the debate. The main reason why healthcare and insurance are so expensive is the large numbers of people who receive care and never pay. The costs I listed in the states above are only a fraction of how much is actually lost each year, and those are net costs, already subtracting what little federal reimbursement has been received. Since the federal government only pays a small part of the losses, the rest is covered by increasing the cost for those who do pay; namely, you and I, and our insurance companies.

As the current health care program is written, there will be no provision requiring people to show proof of citizenship to qualify, which means that people who do not pay into the system may still demand treatment from it.

Lastly, where is the money going to come from to pay for this program? How much tax do you pay right now, personally? Income tax, sales tax, social security tax, gas tax, registration tax, property tax, utility tax... have you ever computed the amount of money you pay in tax each year? How much more can you bear to pay? Do you think your premiums will decrease if the healthcare bill passes? And, if they do, how long will those lower premiums last? How much do you think your children will have to pay? We already know that Social Security will become insolvent in just a few years unless drastic measures are taken, yet everyone is afraid right now to mention that problem. Won't it be nice if your health insurance premiums decrease by 25%, but your Social Security payments increase by 40%?

Do you wonder why California is facing such a crisis right now? Over the last several years businesses have found it increasingly unaffordable to do business in California, mainly because of the high taxes there, so they've moved to states where taxes are lower, like Nevada, Texas, and others.

The same thing occurs on a national level. In a world economy, we can easily move our manufacturing, accounting, or customer service to another country.

The government is increasingly taking control of the parts of our lives which we used to be responsible for, but charging more for it, and giving us less in return. The government are financial and economic buffoons, who spend $5 for every $1 in tax collected, yet, you think that somehow they can manage government subsidized health care effectively?

Once again, it is not the government's job to take care of us, it is the government's job to maintain an environment that allows us to take care of ourselves.

85% of Americans happy with their health insurance? I have met exactly one American in the last four years who is happy with their current care.

That number has been bandied around, but I've never seen any direct evidence of its truth. All direct evidence I have suggests the opposite: the vast majority of Americans are decidedly unhappy about the cost of healthcare in America.

I know I am.

Sangetsu, I made a few simple requests to you. As this health insurance reform plan passes this evening and John Boehner eats his words and Rush Limbaugh packs his bags for Costa Rica I will ask you to address the comments I made to you before I put more effort into addressing the points you are making.

I think that is fair.

No one I know likes their health insurance plans, but to be fair many of the people I know are self-employed or are business owners.

I won't argue with the 85% number, but when you ask people who are "in the system" vs. those that are not, you get very different numbers. People that have their insurance covered by their employer and don't actually use it (i.e. have no medical issues) are invariably satisfied with their health insurance coverage. However when you ask people that do have health issues and do use their health insurance coverage to pay (partially) for health coverage are not 85% satisfied. Far from it.

No one is happy with the rising cost of healthcare in the US. The poll was about how many are satisfied with their health insurance. Try to keep up. Cost of health care, cost of health insurance, quality of care, quality of insurance... there is a difference and the quality is going down while the costs are going to continue to go up. The bill doesn't address this.

No direct evidence?

Its 95% of the 85% who have insurance who are happy with it. The 85% is figure is a scientific poll thats been around for a year... just google it.

Here is a fancy CNN poll for you done in a nice offical document:
http://www.americanhealthsolution.or...-Coverage2.pdf

Soooo in your personal polls of Americans you met over 4 years, does the 4 years begin before or after you been in Japan?

I doubt anyone gives a damn about your poll of Americans you have met in Rural Kyoto in the past 2-3 years about those who are not involved in the system anymore, nor are probably old enough to really use health care. More less the poll of encounters of whatever you did before that.
Ask some Canadians or some from the UK while you are at it.
Sorry.. I'm going with the scientific polls (plural) versus your opinion of your drinking buddies.

Once the system starts to crumble, and Doctors retire early or simply leave the country to make a living, lets see how it affects the rest of the world who line up for American technolgy in health care.

shite... it passed...

92% of Americans now are covered and the soul of American has been sold. So... 10-15% were without insurance before becuase they didn't want it or they gambled without it, now we can cover 2%-7% more? Just wait until all the pork starts to fly..and the impact of this bill sinks in.

haha executive order as a promise to Pro-life... did he write that on a napkin?

Smoke 'em if you got them folks...
I'm done.

If I had a nice Cuban Cohiba or a Montecristo I would be smoking it right now.

Yes, a cuban would be suitable for such a socialistic communist occasion.

Me... Vodka...

Enjoy comrades.

A footnote:
The Senate has to complete reconcilliation before this bill can go forward. As the bill stands, all the big bucks bribes are still in the Senate bill. What the House did tonight, despite all the hooting and shouting, is agree to pass whatever comes out of the reconcilliation process. If the Senate changes things too much, the bill has to go back to the house to be voted on again. Wouldn't that be fun and interesting.

Don't forget Marxist, Maoist and gosh-darn Anti-American.

Cheers, Salud, Kampai and На здоровье!

Public option, public option, yay, yay, yay! Got the news on the Shinkansen.

Also, clintjm, that four years is in America. Your scientific poll reflects not at all Americans I have spoken to in New Mexico, Texas, Illinois, Georgia...

You can keep your pissy tone to yourself, too. I'm tired of you making assumptions, tossing them in the face of anyone who disagrees with you or questions your conclusions, and then acting like a total jerk about the debate. Stop attacking the person for expressing opinions you disagree with.