Feelings Toward Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by termogard

Justifiable, you said?! There is a difference between attacking Pearl-Harbour ( a Naval base) and dropping of armed nuclear devices on cities, filled by civilians.

And how many countries did Japan invade and how many civillians did they kill on their little crusade through Asia? America (and other allied nations) were the saviour of these countries and their peoples. A bit more went on than just an attack on a naval base and the subsequent dropping of nuclear devices on Japanese cities. 10's of millions of lives were lost as a direct result of the Japanese invasion of Asia. People sometimes seem to forget that Japan was the aggressor not the US who helped liberate most of the countries occupied by the brutal Japanese forces.
I believe there is a very good case that the atomic bombs helped end the war considerably earlier than it would have otherwise and saved many more lives (both allied and Japanese) from a protracted war on Japanese soil than died as a result of the bombings.

[WingsToDiscovery]

While I don't necessarily fully agree with GoNative's opinion (there's far too much to this to try and debate over a forum), I will at least supplement his input by concurring that many people have a very ignorant idea of what actually happened in the east aside from what parts involved the Americans and western allies. Subjects like the Nanking Massacre get shoved to the side in favor of taking a much easier "anti-American" approach to the war.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by termogard

Justifiable, you said?! There is a difference between attacking Pearl-Harbour ( a Naval base) and dropping of armed nuclear devices on cities, filled by civilians.

Your ignorance towards the events of WW2 and particularly of those leading up to the dropping of the bombs is made more than clear by this statement. I suggest you try and gain some understanding before jumping on the modern-day bash America bandwagon. In short you don't know what you are talking about, so stop talking.

[GoNative]

The Nanking massacre is only one of thousands of equally appalling events that the Japanese were responsible for. You're right Wings most people, especially the little crowd of weaboos out there, have no idea whatsoever what went on during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Asia. No idea how many people they killed and the incredible suffering they created for those they didn't.
I'm not trying to make out the atomic bombs weren't horrific. Of course they were. But I think it's very hard to say that the bombs were unjustifiable. The allied powers had already lost millions of men in the war in Europe and Asia. The prospect of a protracted war up through onto the Japanese mainland would have been somewhat horrifying and incredibly bloody. Hard to say what any of us would have decided to do when offered a possible solution that would save 100's of thousands of lives of the soldiers we were responsible for.
The fact that a second bomb needed to be dropped says more to me about the ridiculous leadership the Japanese people had to endure during that dark period than anything about how terrible the Americans were.

[JamboP26]

The band Dir En Grey used scenes from the Hiroshima bombings in their video for Vinushka (although a majority of the video is censored). I frightening thing is, it works. The group 'direngreyvideos' also made a fan-vid for Sa Bir, using bits from Vinushka & other uncensored clips, showing injuries. I post links to the vids:

YouTube - Vinushka PV HD

YouTube - Sa Bir HD

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by GoNative

The Nanking massacre is only one of thousands of equally appalling events that the Japanese were responsible for. You're right Wings most people, especially the little crowd of weaboos out there, have no idea whatsoever what went on during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Asia. No idea how many people they killed and the incredible suffering they created for those they didn't.
I'm not trying to make out the atomic bombs weren't horrific. Of course they were. But I think it's very hard to say that the bombs were unjustifiable. The allied powers had already lost millions of men in the war in Europe and Asia. The prospect of a protracted war up through onto the Japanese mainland would have been somewhat horrifying and incredibly bloody. Hard to say what any of us would have decided to do when offered a possible solution that would save 100's of thousands of lives of the soldiers we were responsible for.
The fact that a second bomb needed to be dropped says more to me about the ridiculous leadership the Japanese people had to endure during that dark period than anything about how terrible the Americans were.

GN I think you have said it all really. There is lots of information out there for those who genuinely wish to learn about the Pacific War.

I am sure we have already had a thread on this issue before.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Suki

And ok, World War II was horrible and it should have never happened, but why are we not trying to change what's taking place now? Cause it's just as bad. If not worse.

The world is in a much fairer, more stable and more co-operative state NOW than it was during WW2. The arguable horrors of modern warfare also don't really correspond with the undeniable atrocities of the two great wars. You're trying to turn this thread into a generalized scald at America, and if you can't see that, you need to take a step back.

Originally Posted by Suki

The question isn't if the population of today (who can't even come close to imagine what it must've been like to live back then) has been able to forgive the US for the massacre in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the question is, why are they still sending people out to kill? Really. Over one million people have died in Iraq. Why is it any different from the Nazis killing the Jews? Everyone agrees that what the Nazis did was wrong, then why are we not stopping the killing in Iraq? I fail to see how it's any different.

and this just basically sums up exactly why you need to take a step back from this argument and reconsider your entirely thoughtless words. Godwin's Law. Over a million people may have died in Iraq, but that death toll is not the sole responsibility of the American army. They are NOT herding innocent civilians to death camps with the view to commit genocide. You undermine the incredible suffering of the victims of the holocaust with your gauche comparisons.

[/quote] I can forgive the US for what they did in WWII cause it made sense at that time, but I cannot begin to understand why the-[/quote]

Watch your language.

Originally Posted by Suki

So what I'm saying is, let's worry about Uganda and Somalia and Pakistan and Colombia and Ethiopia and Nigeria and Algeria and Iran and Thailand and Yemen and Iraq.

And now your argument is just ridiculous. At least two of those countries aren't AT war, and any unrest there is internal and entirely unrelated to America. And LOL, according to your argument, the rest of the world shouldn't interfere anyway. Let them get on with it!

[JohnBraden]

Originally Posted by Suki

And strangely enough, American citizens seem to back up every move made by their army, like they truly believe they're doing a great job by being sent away from their homes to propagate peace and democracy.

While there are the overly patriotic types out there who feel like you say, most families that have loved ones in the military support THEM, the soldiers out there in a foreign land dying for a cause they may not believe in. Since the military these days is a voluntary service, and people join up for a variety of reasons, it is ultimately they who give up their lives for the politics of the nation. Everywhere you see signs stating "WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS" because they are the ones on the front lines. If you poll people out there, quite a few would say the conflicts we Americans get involved with are not our concern. And most people don't support the actions of the military command, but they do support the poor folks out there getting shot at.

Unfortunately, many people join the military forces because it is a way to escape poverty and bad economic times.

While there are many points I do agree with you, Suki, this is one that I must point out because people outside the United States may not be able to differentiate this. I'm not saying you are one of them, I'm just sayin....

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by GoNative

The Nanking massacre is only one of thousands of equally appalling events that the Japanese were responsible for. You're right Wings most people, especially the little crowd of weaboos out there, have no idea whatsoever what went on during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Asia. No idea how many people they killed and the incredible suffering they created for those they didn't.
I'm not trying to make out the atomic bombs weren't horrific. Of course they were. But I think it's very hard to say that the bombs were unjustifiable. The allied powers had already lost millions of men in the war in Europe and Asia. The prospect of a protracted war up through onto the Japanese mainland would have been somewhat horrifying and incredibly bloody. Hard to say what any of us would have decided to do when offered a possible solution that would save 100's of thousands of lives of the soldiers we were responsible for.
The fact that a second bomb needed to be dropped says more to me about the ridiculous leadership the Japanese people had to endure during that dark period than anything about how terrible the Americans were.

*Sigh* Here we go again. (Sorry.. but this topic always seems to raise it's head).

The dropping of the second bomb or even the first bomb wasn't needed. Historians that specialize in the subject point to a president eager to test the bomb on a civilian population. Who even defied his own intelligence agencies that claimed the Japanese were on the verge of surrender and that there was internal conflict in the government as early as 1944 as well as numerous attempts to surrender.

Also comparing the dropping of the bombs to Japanese atrocities is going by the flawed logic that 2 wrongs make a right.

The logical conclusion is that the Japanese atrocities were appalling AND the dropping of the atomic bombs (and the firebombings that preceded them which killed more civilians) were appalling.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Also comparing the dropping of the bombs to Japanese atrocities is going by the flawed logic that 2 wrongs make a right.

I more or less see your point of view over GoNative's but this is what I disagree with. It's not a "2 wrongs don't make a right" scenario. It's just acknowledging that more than just the atomic bombings happened in the east. Most people probably couldn't tell you Japan's agenda (if this thread is any indication) outside of Pearl Harbor and the A bombs. America somehow ends up getting guilted into being the bad guys, not because the atomic bombs, but because of people's lack of knowledge on the subject. Nanking is just one of the instances where you can step back and say "wow, the was f^&&$d up." But because it had no direct result (such as ending a war), it just gets glossed over and threads like these are made instead, calling the Americans into question.