BRANCH: WWII and Star Wars

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The DS had 100,000 storm troopers, that's more than a few battalions. It held a million plus personel and was the size of a small moon. It was basically a major military base, and military bases have large civilian populations that hang around them because troops on base have lots of two things....spare time..and money.

I'll give you a real time example. When I was sent to Germany dureing Desert Storm, My battallion alone pumped 5 million into the local economy in 6 months. Germany use to have over 300,000 American troops stationed there. I'm sure everyone remembers all the demonstrations about "Yankee go home". What people fail to remember is many of those protests near the end were about "Yankee stay here" cause those small towns around the bases noticed how much money they were looseing as fewer and fewer Americans were stationed there.

That doesn't change the fact the DS was a legit target, I wont deny that. But it wasn't just stacked wall to wall with battle hardened nutjobs either. Those civilians provided essential R and R and other goods and services to the troops there and made them as much a legit target as the DS was.

That's the whole issue. Civilians in a war are resources for the nation at war and thus become 'legit" war targets becuase of what they provide for the nation dureing war time...wich is EVERYTHING. It takes Civilians to keep a national army working.

You're making it all up.

I'm thinking that they rotated people in an out for half year or even full year tours.

Like I said... both DS were pretty much top secret projects.

The DS wouldn't have just been any base. It would have been like the Area 51 of the Empire.

[Ryzorian]

The thing about secrets is that the more people who know about it, the less it's a secret. You understand how many people it would take to build something like that? Even with droids doing some of the heavy work, you would still have large numbers of civilian contractors because there weren't that many droids around then, Palpatine had a large number of them decommissioned after the "Clone wars".

The only reason no one "knew" anything about it was due to the Dark side clouding everything, like a veil. The monster could be in plain sight, but the veil makes people fail to see what is really there..

Besides, the empire had a massive fleet of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, nobody was hideing those in some "emperial" area 51, and they could destroy planets as well. The DS's big asset was One Shot, One kill. Though I think the money spent would have been better placed on more Star Destroyers, because they can get the job done and you can show more imperial influence via ports of call. Plus the DS was too much of the "eggs all in one basket" type of thing.

Another thing people miss is that not everyone thought the "empire" was a bad thing, or even the bad guy. Billions of folks lived very well within the empire, same as Roman citizens did dureing Pax Romana.

That's the true irony of war, every nation has stories of classic struggles between good and evil, with good being triumphant. In war everyone think's thier the good guy and the other side the bad guy. The bad guys loose right? It's why many wars last well beyond the point of no return because nobody is the "bad guy".

[JasonTakeshi]

MMM is a Star Wars freak.

[Ryzorian]

I like all sorts, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Star Gate. Pretty much anything with alien babes and ships explodeing.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

The thing about secrets is that the more people who know about it, the less it's a secret. You understand how many people it would take to build something like that? Even with droids doing some of the heavy work, you would still have large numbers of civilian contractors because there weren't that many droids around then, Palpatine had a large number of them decommissioned after the "Clone wars".

The only reason no one "knew" anything about it was due to the Dark side clouding everything, like a veil. The monster could be in plain sight, but the veil makes people fail to see what is really there..

Besides, the empire had a massive fleet of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers, nobody was hideing those in some "emperial" area 51, and they could destroy planets as well. The DS's big asset was One Shot, One kill. Though I think the money spent would have been better placed on more Star Destroyers, because they can get the job done and you can show more imperial influence via ports of call. Plus the DS was too much of the "eggs all in one basket" type of thing.

Another thing people miss is that not everyone thought the "empire" was a bad thing, or even the bad guy. Billions of folks lived very well within the empire, same as Roman citizens did dureing Pax Romana.

That's the true irony of war, every nation has stories of classic struggles between good and evil, with good being triumphant. In war everyone think's thier the good guy and the other side the bad guy. The bad guys loose right? It's why many wars last well beyond the point of no return because nobody is the "bad guy".

For the umpteenth time there was no need for civilian contractors because the Empire used slaves for manual labour and droids for the menial tasks like cooking and shit.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

Star Destroyers that could destroy planets? I'm aware that they could lay waste to planets but destroy them?

Nowhere in Star wars canon that I'm aware of are civilian contractors mentioned in the construction of the DS nor is a droid shortage mentioned. I've already explained how the Empire likely managed things.

The only justification you have for that stem from drawing conclusions based on how things work on Earth. Which is flawed because a lot of the difference in technology as well as social and political structure of the Empire compared with whatever example you want to compare it with.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

I like all sorts, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Star Gate. Pretty much anything with alien babes and ships explodeing.

You like Star Trek?

With your "might makes right" attitude you would not even make it into Starfleet.

The Federation of Planets is humanistic political organization with a charter that basically prohibits the sort of "might makes right" Imperialistic attitude that you condone.

[Ronin4hire]

If you want to discuss something that was morally ambiguous that occured within the Star Wars universe the clone wars are better subject material.

The war between the Seperatists and the Republic.

Why the Jedi decided to side with the Republic is beyond me.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by JasonTakeshi

MMM is a Star War's freak.

I was born long enough ago that I saw Star Wars in the theater in 1977 (and 1978) several times as a kid.

What did I say that was freak-ish?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

For the umpteenth time there was no need for civilian contractors because the Empire used slaves for manual labour and droids for the menial tasks like cooking and shit.

I think "we" are assuming that. Do you have canon evidence there were no civilian contractors, builders, etc. Did droids do all the cooking? We know that wasn't always the case on the planets.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

If you want to discuss something that was morally ambiguous that occured within the Star Wars universe the clone wars are better subject material.

The war between the Seperatists and the Republic.

Why the Jedi decided to side with the Republic is beyond me.

I would like to know more. Why do you think the Seperatists/Rebels had the Jedi on their side?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think "we" are assuming that. Do you have canon evidence there were no civilian contractors, builders, etc. Did droids do all the cooking? We know that wasn't always the case on the planets.

The onus isn't on me to prove you wrong. It's on you to prove yourself right. This is just basic logic. (It's like the argument of God. To say he exists because I can't prove his non-existence is illogical)

Considering there is no canonical source that supports any of your theories... I automatically win BUT I'm willing to listen to reason.

Therefore the only way we can discuss the possibility of such a situation is via reason. My reasoning is based on how things work in the Star Wars universe. The role of droids and slaves and the nature of the Death Star as a Starship of high strategic importance.

You and Ryozorian base your conclusions that stem from real world assumptions. All you've done is simply attempt to transplant the nature of our reality onto the star wars one. Which would otherwise be fine had it not neglected the technological and political "realities" of the star wars universe.

Originally Posted by MMM

I would like to know more. Why do you think the Seperatists/Rebels had the Jedi on their side?

The Republic had the Jedi on their side, not the seperatists.

The Jedi order didn't exist during the Empire. (Most were hunted down and killed but some survived)

The reason escapes me as to why they would choose a side in that conflict. (My guess is just bad writing though)

The seperatists just wanted independence. Granted they were lead by the trade federation... but I don't see the problem in granting political independence to worlds that wanted it.

I don't know much about the clone wars though.