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cranks (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 06:49 PM

I respect you for having the guts to apologize and regain the cool, Ronin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
How are you confused about my statement.

I said it wasnt the only thing in which we decided whether or not we eat something which was in reply to your assertion that eating babies is OK.

Its not an arbitrary thing though.
I just needed to know if there is something else involved in your GOOD reason or there isn't. Self-awareness itself can not hold water, as I depicted with the baby's example. Then what is you "other" reasonings? Have you ever thought about it?

Again, I'm not trying to win the argument or trying to prove that supporting anti-whaling is wrong. But I feel it is important to present Japanese side of view. I said this before, but not many Japanese people actually eat whale. But still, anti-whaling movement is extremely unpopular. This is because the activists' "reasoning" directly collides with a basic Japanese cultural principle.

Last edited by cranks : 09-03-2010 at 06:56 PM.
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evanny (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
Im ignoring you for 2 reasons. Replying to cranks is tiring as I have to take apart his posts piece by piece and he is saying a lot of stuff.

The other reason is that you arent really saying anything that profound.
or when it comes to your sweet nature you are a hipocrate.
basic things you have said are: we should not eat anyone who is self aware.
dolphins - self aware and you dont want to eat them.
pigs - selfaware - shit, now what you do? you do like bacon, so you are going to keep eating them - simple as that, you said it.
retarted, veg-state people - me and cranks (just play along ) want to eat them. and it should be ok because a lot of them are not aware of anything. but again - you have a problem...

so make your damn mind up!!! either you admit that you are damn hipocrate and youll eat the things you jugde to be lesser than you or choose- do not eat anything alive (chances are every living thing is aware) or eat and let eat others what the hell they want!!!!
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Ronin4hire (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cranks View Post

I just needed to know if there is something else involved in your GOOD reason or there isn't. Self-awareness itself can not hold water, as I depicted with the baby's example. Then what is you "other" reasoning? Have you thought about it?

Again, I'm not trying to win the argument or trying to prove that supporting anti-whaling is wrong. But I feel it is important to present Japanese side of view. I said this before, but not many Japanese people actually eat whale. But still, anti-whaling movement is extremely unpopular. This is because the activists' "reasoning" directly collides with a basic Japanese cultural principle.
My position is that dolphins are self aware therefore we shouldnt eat them.

Regarding babies, I can think of numerous reasons why babies shouldnt be eaten despite them not being self aware.

For a start, their mothers wont be very happy about it. Secondly, I dont think that the normalisation of baby eating would make for a very healthy society as I hate to think what the implications of a society which accepts this practice would be. Third.. I think the baby is a human and has the potential for self awareness. It would be just as horrible to eat a baby dolphin as it would be to eat an adult dolphin. The same goes for humans.
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Ronin4hire (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evanny View Post
pigs - selfaware - shit, now what you do? you do like bacon, so you are going to keep eating them - simple as that, you said it.
Not simple as that.

Columbine said that they did well in one particular test but did not show signs that they mourned or felt remorse so whether they are self aware is not a sure thing.

I replied to Columbine thanking him for enlightening me on the issue. I added that I dont eat meat all that often anyway to illustrate my general attitude towards eating meat.

Of course I do sometimes eat meat if Im in a position where it would be too much of a hassle for me to refuse meat. But the type of meat I usually eat most is chicken or fish and they are very probably not self aware.

See above as to why I wouldnt want you to eat babies.
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evanny (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
Not simple as that.

Columbine said that they did well in one particular test but did not show signs that they mourned
.
ou then its settled...lots of retarted people wont be able to pass your test..lots and lots - so, what you say? McDonalds new burger..how do we call it?
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Ronin4hire (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 07:09 PM

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Originally Posted by evanny View Post
ou then its settled...lots of retarted people wont be able to pass your test..lots and lots - so, what you say? McDonalds new burger..how do we call it?
Im thinking Mcevanny
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evanny (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 07:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
Im thinking Mcevanny

name is fine.
then again we could also wrap it up in your profile picture and call it McHipocrite.
well that depends on mcdonald. im sure theyll make the right choice.
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Columbine (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 09:13 PM

I'm not up to a long involved post right this second, but would like you to make note of a few key things;

1) Watch your language. It would be stupid to get this thread shut for disintegrating into a juvenile slanging match and personal insults. If you need to resort to such measures, then you should leave the conversation and cool off.

2) Understand a debate will always have two sides. So far this debate has been mostly been about understanding the deeper reasoning behind hunting cetaceans. Please appreciate that the slant will have to make a return on this and also investigate the deeper reasoning behind the great aversion to hunting cetaceans.

3) I'm female.
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cranks (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
My position is that dolphins are self aware therefore we shouldnt eat them.

Regarding babies, I can think of numerous reasons why babies shouldnt be eaten despite them not being self aware.

For a start, their mothers wont be very happy about it. Secondly, I dont think that the normalisation of baby eating would make for a very healthy society as I hate to think what the implications of a society which accepts this practice would be. Third.. I think the baby is a human and has the potential for self awareness. It would be just as horrible to eat a baby dolphin as it would be to eat an adult dolphin. The same goes for humans.
OK. So there are numerous reasons for you shouldn't eat babies. And when it comes to babies, it is not about self-awareness. But when it comes to dolphins, it is self-awareness.

Why the difference?

Also, eating dolphins wouldn't make an unhealthy society, at least Japanese people think so. And if a baby dolphin has a potential for self-awareness, why don't pigs have the "potential" for it? Is it OK to eat a baby if the mother has died and nobody's around?

I can come up with just as many examples too.

The thing is, in the western philosophy, "self" has been reserved for human and for human only. Dogs don't have self. Pigs don't have self. Cows don't have self. And Whales don't have self. This is the view that has been held for more than 2000 years since the Greek invented "philosophy".

Now you are trying to expand the idea of "self" to dogs and whales, which, of and by itself, I agree with. I think it is absurd to think that only humans have selves. But how can you "know" which species at what development stage acquire selves? You can't. Science can't even answer a simple question, "What is self?". It is a feeling we think we all share, and we know it's there. But every time we try to define its boundary, it evades us. The Greek solution was that they "defined" it was something that humans have. You can't go wrong with this one. It's in the definition.

The eastern solution though, was that they thought we all had a bit of self. The amount of which, we don't know. The good old eastern gray area tactic. We feel a human has more self than a dog, and insects probably have teeny tiny selves too. Have you heard of the saying "一寸の虫にも五分の魂"?

So, you, and a lot of westerners, justify eating animals by saying they don't have "self". Japanese people don't justify it. They simply take other "selves" because they need to, not because they are permitted to by some logic. And you are supposed to thank other "selves" you take to sustain your own. Hence "いただきます".

Saying "Pigs don't have selves" is a sacrilege to pigs' selves which Japanese believe they have. It is important to show respect to the taken "selves" and not waste the bodies they left in this material world. Now that contradicts with the amount of food Japanese are wasting but that's a different discussion.

Anyway, a history lessen. Japan abounded her seclusion policy 150 years ago. Why? An American guy called Matthew Perry came all the way from the states with a squadron and pointed cannons at Edo castle, scared the shit out of the Shogun. Perry wanted Japanese ports open to… American whaling ships. Americans didn't eat whale meat (what a sacrilege! :P). They just took oil from them and discarded the carcasses. They hunted and hunted and hunted until the whales almost became extinct. You might say it was long time ago, but Japan is a country with a very long history. People in Kyoto still talk about The War, 応仁の乱, which happened in 1467.

Now, I can't stop you from thinking you are morally superior to people in Taichi, but to their view, and this is merely one way of seeing things, you are one of the people who came from the west, bullied Japanese because they wanted to hunt whales, profaned whales' "selves", and made them almost extinct. You also don't have the moral value of respecting other animal selves sans whales and dogs. You actually look morally lower to their eyes. I'm not judging you, and it is not my "opinion", I'm just trying to present their side of view.

I don't know how you will take this soap box speech of mine, but one thing for sure is your "logic" of "whales have selves, and pigs don't" is not just something that doesn't wash in Japan, but it actually sounds morally low and hippocratic. Again, I'm not judging, and it is not my opinion, I'm just saying it looks so in the light of the Japanese moral and cultural values.

I wrote this using more western logic and ideas, purposely used some rhetorics to better illustrate Japanese values, and so it is more like a westernized version of a Japanese way of thinking. Your Japanese friends will never express things the way I just did, the ones who don't think in English won't anyway. But I think this is a good approximation. Ask your friends why they say "いただきます" and what their feelings are when they say it. Ask how they feel about wasting food and playing with food. And ask what they really feel about the idea that whales have selves and pigs don't. They might give you a good answer, they might not. But there would be something definitely different from the western culture there.
[/RANT]

Last edited by cranks : 09-04-2010 at 04:26 AM.
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chiuchimu (Offline)
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09-03-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin4hire View Post
You are an idiot.

Its not because whales are cute.

Its because Japan is clearly commercially hunting whale when it is prohibited.

The REASON it is prohibited is because resuming full commercial whaling would result in many species of whale becoming extinct.

Also I have also presented my argument that whales are self-aware animals.
Idiot? What type of language is that? Don't like what I have to say so out comes the insults.


It's all about cute, The west has no problem being inhuman to thousands of animals as long as its the meat they want to eat. This is about one culture thinking they have the right to tell another culture whats right and wrong. If you didn't know that, you don't understand the situation.

IWC membership is voluntary. No one can force Japan to be a member. Japan has never broken an IWC rule. The opposition say Japan has found a loop hole in the rules and are taking advantage of them. Tough!!! rules are rules. Japan is following them. If you don't like whats going on. Change the IWC rules. The reason they don't is because Japan would then Quit the IWC and then you got NOTHING.

Self-aware? Whales? Like ' I think, therefore I am'? And you called me an idiot.... LOL!
Go bother Norway with your touchy-feely non-sense.

Last edited by chiuchimu : 09-03-2010 at 10:57 PM.
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