Ronin,

"BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!" is not logic. And you know it. I'm not Dolphin, so I don't care about them. You are not Dolphin, so you have no business with them. Cod Erat Demonstrandum.

You are human, so you are more "emotionally attached" to human. Yes. That's natural. But that's not a logic. Social animal species NEED to care about their own species. Or it's actually the other way around. They cared about each other, so they survived. That's how we evolved. That's why our species survived according to the Darwinist view. Now if you don't believe in evolution, please tell me so, because that'll change things a lot.

Assuming you believe in evolution, you care about humans more than pigs, because that's how our species survived. It is a "CAUSE" of our species' survival. It is not "logic". We are "made" to be that way.

How inhuman of you, Ronin, to say dogs don't have "selves" and therefore we can kill them and eat them as we please? I bet I could get a majority of English speaking people, or any human who didn't eat dog, on my side with this argument if we were talking about dogs. According to your logic, dogs don't have selves so we can kill them. How dare you say that? Haven't you a heart? :P

Really, if you think you can convince any dog owner with your "logic" of "non-self-aware animals can be killed and eaten", try it. You'll fail. Most humankind don't care if their dogs recognize their own optical images in a mirror or not. The mirror test? That's just freaking bogus. Dogs have selves. That's a given. Whatever "LOGIC" you employ won't move their hearts a bit.

Likewise, whatever "logic" I employ to "prove" that the species you call "whales" don't have "selves" will be moot. You'll just deny it, or just won't care. Everybody knows that, so please don't casually say you care about logic in the heat of a moment unless you really have a very good "logic". This topic is really about my, and a lot of Japanese people's, "beliefs". Please don't play it down. Please treat it as you treat your friends' Christian beliefs. I'm not saying "don't even talk about it", I do like to talk about it and I do appreciate your candidness. But please acknowledge that my opinion here is not something I concocted after I engaged in this discussion. It is a product of over a couple of decades of deliberation, backed, somewhat, by over a couple of thousands of years of the history of the Eastern philosophy.

You have said you are morally superior to people in Taichi and indirectly me. But if you are so morally superior, I think you should care about your own countries' inhumanity to your fellow human race first and foremost. I have brought up several racial discrimination cases by the anti-whaling folks here. And I've noticed you haven't made any comment whatsoever on that and just kept going on about whales. As I said, I like whales, but the racism to my race is more important for me than the whales. Coloreds are stabbed and killed by the racists in your country and the one next to it. What are all these "morally superior" people doing with whales? PEOPLE are being MURDERED because of racism IN YOUR COUNTRY! and these anti-whaling people are actually INCITING the racism!

Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Myself included of course. It was a good experience that I got a racial slur in the UK on the street. (not to bash the UK. Racism happens everywhere and I think the UK is one of the better countries. It was just a stupid brad). It made my eyes open to racism and how I was so insensitive to it. I'm no better than you or anybody, but in this particular case I'm the working end of the racism, so I see more than you do. I brought up the example of Japanese mocked on street on Australian TV, but even Misa, who I believe is a very liberal person, failed to perceive it as an extremely racist act until I present the hypothesized example of Japanese people mocking Koreans on TV. Again, racism is hard to see when you are the majority. There are hundreds of thousands of racist remarks on the web regrading whaling. Sure, there are hundreds of thousands of racial remarks on the web by Japanese too, but I would NEVER EVER allow that in a group I belong to, and it is a more serious problem than most anything to me, more than the animal welfare for sure.

You probably remember how I was so worked up with Debito. I don't think he's evil to the core, he can even be a good person to hang out with. But I'm sorry, he is a bigoted racist. If posting the comic strip called "A Little Yellow Jap" that mocks Japanese race on the web, for whatever reason, doesn't earn him the racist title, I don't know what will. He is an "activist" on discrimination but he thinks it is totally fine to post that thing in public. Racism is that hard to recognize sometime.

I won't close this post with [/RANT]. It was out of modesty to do so in the last post. But this time I want my message to be clear. This is how I actually feel and what I believe in. No hard feelings though. I like your straightness and I thank you for giving me a chance to express our side of view, Ronin.

This isn't about racism. It's about economics versus animal rights. Taiji fisherman kill the dolphins for money, pure and simple. People from around the world think dolphins are somewhat amazing animals and don't wish to see them slaughtered in the manner they are in Taiji. Nothing to do with racial issues.
Japanese nationalists like to try and deflect the argument by trying to make it into an issue of racism but it isn't.

Believe what you want to believe. It's ironic you are GoNative. you seem to have no interest in going native in Japanese culture.

A lot of people in Japan think these activists are racist. And I agree.

If you think I am a slanted nationalist Japanese, that's fine. But the truth is, I'm probably one of the most liberal Japanese person who understand the western (and antipodal) side of the view more than 99.9% of Japanese people. Just look at what language we are using. It is not even my mother tongue, yet honestly, I'm making a lot more considerate post than your 5 line post.

I repeat. Racism is hard to see when you are the majority. Racism is not just about using the N word. It's about the feeling of superiority.

Explain then how this is a racist issue. There are plenty of examples from other countries where when graphic slaughter of wild animals is exposed to the wider world pressure is applied to have it stopped. It's no different in this case and has nothing to do with it being in Japan. Sure some people might make racist comments and there are plenty of people out there who have racist attitudes towards the Japanese and this issue just backs up their predjudices but at it's core this is not a racial issue and it's best if we don't let the idiots from either side of the argument make it into one.

You clearly haven't read my posts. Please read them and come back. Please read the entire thread for that matter. Nobody's talking about banning of one specie for an environmental concern.

Once you read them, please present the examples of "slaughter of wild animals" that were banned because they were "graphic" .


P.S.
If you have talked to Japanese people who were really worked up with the issue and ended up acting like an idiot, I even apologize for them. But unless you talked to them in Japanese, it is not fair. "They" tried to talk to you in "your" language, and you talked to them with your own or something you are good at. I still think these stupid Japanese fellows are the ones who were trying to reach out, not you.

I've read the entire thread and have commented numerous times. This is the first time you've decided to actually read what I've written and commented.

A classic example of an industry being shut down from international pressure because of the graphic nature of the slaughter was clubbing of seals for their fur. Canada was especially singled out. No one claimed it was because of racism then.

There are many examples from all over the world of international pressure on countries that kill endangered animals or animals that have some sort of cutesy appeal to the masses. Look at the world wildlife funds website for the sorts of issues that get animal rights people up in arms currently. Many more countries then Japan being singled out.

It wouldn't matter where in the world it happened, the sort of graphic slaughter of dolphins that occurs in Taiji would get animal rights people up in arms. this particular issue is occurring in Japan but the world condemnation is not because you're Japanese it's because dolphins are being slaughtered ina rather horribly graphic way. Personally I don't get all that upset about it myself one way or the other but it's ridiculous to try and turn this into an issue of racism. It's not.

As I said previously that doesn't mean that some people do use racial slurs in their arguments against the slaughter. They do but this is not an issue about race it's an issue about people slaughtering dolphins. A lot of people around the world don't like it. Simple as that.

Yes, the West banned clubbing of seals for their fur. And these Native Americans are in poverty now precisely for that reason.

Just because it "HAPPENED", why is it "RIGHT" to do? Australians hunted aborigines, so should we be hunting them again then?

I have no problem YOU care about whales more than racism. Really. But racism IS clearly there. I just don't see why caring whales than human race is morally superior. Why?

EDIT:
On the web, there are a lot of people who are, eh, let's say, a bit special. I didn't purposely ignored you, I just didn't see you directly talking to me. This is a controversy I am sure to be in a defending position in an English forum, so sorry if I didn't notice you. Ronin was the one who was posting persistently, and who I knew posted some reasonable posts before. That's why I responded to him, and that's really the only reason.

I'm not saying it is. I'm not arguing morality here. The killing of dolphins in Taiji is purely financial for some in that local community. And as far as I'm concerened that is all it is.
I also believe that the vast bulk of Japanese people have no idea whatsoever of what occurs there. If they did I suspect many would also be appalled at the way the slaughter is carried out.
No country gets to just do whatever it wants without criticism in this day and age. Japan can choose to condone what occurs in Taiji but it can't expect to receive no criticism for it. The criticsm is about the slaughter of dolphins not racism against the Japanese people.
I honestly don't understand your reference to hunting aboriginies in Australia. It is a part of Australian history that is shameful for most Australians and thankfully we moved on from that barbaric past.
People today believe the slaughter of dolphins in Taiji is barbaric as well. They have every right to criticise those doing it. Japan is not immune from international criticism.
And to play the racism card every time it occurs gets a little boring...

Well, I'm sorry, but I still have some teeny tiny life left and I really can't deal with all the different feelings of different people, especially when it is expressed like "Oh these nationalist Japanese are bad. They kill whales and they don't have heart." Really. Sorry.


eh, of corse. The Cove earn a lot more and the GreenPeaces annual budget is like more than 100 times than these dolphins are worth. What do you say to that? why don't you go there and save the dolphins for free?


Do you know what's going on? You can't even speak Japanese. How do you know what's going on there? "Japanese" people are the ones saying that the way the film was taken was extremely one sided.

You are welcome to prove that you do.

Have you ever visited a slaughter house in your country? You'll be appalled, really appalled, dude.

First, Japanese haven't forgotten the nukes that an ex-KKK president dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You'll probably say "Oh, that's American, we have nothing to do with it" but it's all the same to Japanese people. I'm not really mad or anything, and the Nukes is just one example, but I am hoping you get an idea.

Secondly, If you really have read my posts, You know I repeatedly said it is about my "BELIEFS". Will you have that kind of attitude when you talk about your friends' Christian beliefs just because you don't hold with them? How about Muslim? I think my attitude about my beliefs is lenient compared with a lot of Christian and Muslim people and I actually do like to talk about it and do like constructive criticisms. But can you at least have SOME respect please?

And, sorry it was "Boring" that I "Play the racism card". But if you think mentioning the show that mocks random Japanese people on the street out of the blue for whaling is "Playing the racism card", I have nothing to say to you. I don't know about your country, but it is not something you can play down as a "boring racism card" in Japan. If you can't see the racism there, or it's "boring" to you, that's too bad. There are a lot of people who think the same way, and I just sigh and walk away.

Sorry you are completely losing me on most of that post.
I am not one of the people saying the slaughter should be stopped. I am not arguing that dolphins are somehow superior to other animals and deserve special consideration. I do believe though that hunting wild populations of animals is a little different to slaughtering animals that have been domesticated, bred and farmed purely for human consumption.
I am not suggesting that bad things happen to animals only in Japan and for your information I worked a couple of summers in cattle slaughter houses in Australia and I still love eating beef! :mtongue:

All I am saying is that there are people who believe that dolphins do deserve special consideration, that they are not just like any other animal. There are also people who believe the way in which the dolphins are slaughtered in Taiji is cruel and unusual. It's not a matter of whether I agree with them or not which to be honest I don't.

I do believe though these people have every right to express their outrage about what is occurring in Taiji and to protest against the slaughter. I don't believe it has anything to do with racism. This sort of slaughter of dolphins would be condemned no matter where it happened in the world. It is ridiculous to try and turn this into a racism issue.

I have absolutely no idea why you have brought up the nuclear bombings during WWII. What have they got to do with this issue? And I dislike nationalists in any country. Over the top patriotism is destructive anywhere it occurs. I am certainly not patriotic one little bit about my home country. Criticise it all you like ;)

And I have had many arguments with friends over the years about their beliefs in religion and god. Sure people have a right to their beliefs but I reserve the right to criticise them for their beliefs :vsign: