When will Japan remember murdered citizens?

[TalnSG]

Most of the discussion of apologies here have been about Japan apologizing to other nations. The apology would be to their own countrymen for their actions, not to foreigners. The crimes were committed by Japanese against Japanese.

But while I agree with the emotional and moral judgements made here, something serious is being overlooked. You are demanding that a country apologize for enforcing penalties for treason. No matter how laudable the justification, turning against the Emperor in time of war is treason. In any country that carries a death penalty whether the leader is Hirohito, Hitler, Stalin, Roosevelt, or George Washington.

It was wrong, because the government was wrong. But the issue is not so black and white.

[ColinHowell]

Originally Posted by cranks

... Now I ask you. Do you even understand what kenpeitai=憲兵隊 means? It just means military police. The United States today has 憲兵隊.

(By the way, it's tradition in English to romanize 憲兵隊 as "kempeitai", and people are more likely to find information with that spelling than with the modern "kenpeitai". The modern form emphasizes regularity over the actual pronunciation, in which the sound of ん alters from "n" to "m" before "p".)

Strictly speaking, 憲兵隊 means "law-soldier corps" (where by "corps", I mean any organized body of soldiers, rather than the specific class of army unit consisting of several tens of thousands of soldiers and commanded by a lieutenant general.)

To an American, the term "military police" implies a group of soldiers whose job it is to police other soldiers. The powers of U.S. military police are strictly limited, and the military is always considered to be subservient to the civilian government, except in extreme circumstances when martial law is declared.

But "law-soldier corps", when interpreted literally, can have a much broader meaning. (The same is true of "military police" if you ignore its U.S. connotation.) It simply means a body of soldiers with police functions; there is no limit on how broad those police powers may be. And in the case of the kempeitai, those powers were very broad indeed. Though it wasn't the only police force within Japan, the kempeitai still had extensive jurisdiction over the Japanese civilian population, as well as responsibility for law enforcement over occupied territories.

Originally Posted by cranks

What is the basis for your claim that 憲兵隊 had the power of life or death over any citizen? Please present your source. Honestly you are sounding like the people who claim the US never went to the moon and they faked the video.

Backing up claims is always good, but it's ridiculous to say that "the kempeitai had the power of life and death over any citizen" is anywhere near as extreme a claim as "the moon landings were faked". Those Westerners who have heard of the kempeitai generally also hear of its notorious reputation, which has been widely repeated. And it's important to point out that the kempeitai were disbanded after the Japanese surrender, which hardly sounds appropriate for an force of ordinary MPs. It's also interesting to note that the modern Japanese military police force is called "keimutan" (警務官). Changing the name of an organization like that often implies that some stigma is associated with the earlier name.

Originally Posted by cranks

Japan was not a perfect country and there were a lot of oppressions. I agree with that. But the coloreds were down right SLAVES in the states not long before WW2.

No, they were not. Slavery had ended in 1865. The status of African-Americans before World War 2 (hell, even after the war, before the civil rights era) was surely an injustice, but it was not slavery. No matter how tempting it may be rhetorically to call it such, doing so cheapens the meaning of the word and blurs the abomination committed by the U.S. before the Civil War and the victory achieved at its end. Although African-Americans' hard-won legal rights were greatly undermined in the South after the Civil War, and though they were still treated as an underclass even outside the South, they were not taken back into slavery. Slaves are humans treated as property, as others' work tools, with little or no legal rights of their own.

[cranks]

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

To an American, the term "military police" implies a group of soldiers whose job it is to police other soldiers. The powers of U.S. military police are strictly limited, and the military is always considered to be subservient to the civilian government, except in extreme circumstances when martial law is declared.

I guess it is more appropriate to call it the French way, National Gendarmerie, instead of military police. Eitherway, except for during the war time when martial law was actually declared, Kempeitai (Thanks for the spell checking) was not the one which was doing the arrests and oppression the OP was talking about. It was Tokko 特高 whose main mission was to counter act the communist spies, and although the oppression was clearly there during the war time, the notion that Kempeitai, or even Tokko in that sense, was wildly arresting and oppressing Japanese citizens at large is incorrect. As I have already pointed out, the deaths were about 1500. While it is not at all acceptable especially by today's standard, considering the size of Japanese population, the number does not support such notion.

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

Those Westerners who have heard of the kempeitai generally also hear of its notorious reputation, which has been widely repeated.

The only thing I am asking is where you heard it from. Westerners "hear" a lot of things about Japan, like Japanese guys put Sushi on naked girls. And a lot of these things are vastly exaggerated or completely incorrect.

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

And it's important to point out that the kempeitai were disbanded after the Japanese surrender,

ALL military organizations were disbanded. And by the way, ex-Tokko members were used for red-purge by the Americans during the occupation.

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

It's also interesting to note that the modern Japanese military police force is called "keimutan"

Why? Japanese military today is called 自衛隊 and its soldiers are 隊員 not 兵. There is nothing that suggests that Japanese were especially sensitive about the name 憲兵.

Originally Posted by ColinHowell

No, they were not. Slavery had ended in 1865…
… Slaves are humans treated as property, as others' work tools, with little or no legal rights of their own.

I may have tried too hard to make my point and been offensive. I apologize, take back "downright" and make the uppercase SLAVES to lowercase, but that's as far as I go. 1865 was 75 years before the war started, and I don't believe the practice of treating colored people "as others' work tools, with little or no legal rights of their own" was completely abolished the next day Yankees won. Takahashi Korekiyo（高橋是清）who was the prime ministor of Japan before the war from 1921 to 1922, was sold to a family called Browns in Oakland for $50 when he went to the states for study, and later bought back by the Japanese consulate. That was in 1867. I'm not saying the US officially supported slavery in 1940, and I didn't, but Jim Crow laws existed until 1965, and non-white people were officially discriminated and their rights were limited. "Colords were slaves not long before WW2" may still be rhetoric, but considering all these points, it is one that is not too far from the fact. Of course I would make more technically accurate remarks, if the debate was more fact based.

[dannavy85]

35,000 Japanese citizens were arrested, imprisoned and murdered

I clarify this statement by saying I meant it as a whole. 35,000 is a rough number published by Japan's Leftist Socialist Party in 1995. Of this number they claim 2,130 people were executed by the Kempitai. Obviously figures are different depending on what source you dig up.

In the book written by Raymond Lamont Brown the Kempitai rounded up 59,000 Japanese between 1933 and 1936 sending 2,400 to prison and executing 1,300. Amoung those were communists, journalists, Christians and teachers. They were more brutal outside Japan than in but they were instrumental in supressing public dissent in a government that dragged the whole country to hell with it.

[Barone1551]

There are some major differences between how Germany and japan handled guilt at the end of the war. Some say that Japan has not fully dealt with their guilt. Germany took a stance of collective guilt, which blames the German people to some extent. This shows that the people had at least a minor part in the war. Japan more or less blamed their leaders at the time and moved on.

I have heard of the textbook discrepancy as well. Japanese textbooks kinda gloss over the things that lead to the war and stick to just dates and times.

Although it does seem like China wont accept the apology so they can hold it over japan.

[Ghap]

Originally Posted by Barone1551

There are some major differences between how Germany and japan handled guilt at the end of the war. Some say that Japan has not fully dealt with their guilt. Germany took a stance of collective guilt, which blames the German people to some extent. This shows that the people had at least a minor part in the war. Japan more or less blamed their leaders at the time and moved on.

I have heard of the textbook discrepancy as well. Japanese textbooks kinda gloss over the things that lead to the war and stick to just dates and times.

Although it does seem like China wont accept the apology so they can hold it over japan.

There are some major differences between how Germany and japan handled guilt at the end of the war. Some say that Japan has not fully dealt with their guilt

After a conflict on the scale of WW2 what is the criteria of handling the "guilt".


Germany took a stance of collective guilt, which blames the German people to some extent.

Forgive the vulgarity but...

Bollocks!

look up

Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i.e just cos you were German dosent mean you were bad.

Just because you were japanese dosent mean you were bad.


atrocities were commited by all sides in 1 degree or another./

[Ryzorian]

War itself is an atrocity. It's why we should try to avoid them.

[tvfan]

Just to put things in perspective a bit

In his most recent edition of The Great Terror (2007), Conquest states that while exact numbers may never be known with complete certainty, the various terror campaigns launched by the Soviet government claimed no fewer than 15 million lives.

think you're in the wrong forum to demand apologies