Animals Suffering in Japan

[Umihito]

Originally Posted by RealJames

kind of... yeah, actually...

Yeah, I agree. I was just seeing what the response would be.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

So you think that humans have no moral compass? We are just like the animals? All instincts and survival...no compassion, love, critical reasoning?

Basically, yeah. For the majority at least, just like many other things. Only humans can screw up our own planet and not even be bothered to change our petty luxuries when it concerns our future.
If we didn't exist, animals would be MUCH better caretakers of the planet.
I know that may be straying a bit, but I'm just using that as an example of our 'moral compass' as humanity as a whole.

I don't believe in 'love' and such. I've seen countless examples of people breaking truly meaningful relationships because they can't have sex for whatever reason. All human mental 'complexities' derive from basic primal instincts in my experience.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Ever heard of oh.. let's say.. the bubonic plague? If so.. you would just be okay with rats running rampant carrying fleas that kill thousands of people with a deadly disease, sorry.. but once again I value the lives of people over animals. And I apologize to you that I would pick your life over that of a rats... will you ever forgive me??

I would look for all possible alternatives we have in our modern day to save those rats before culling them. If it came to it, then I'd have to reluctantly accept it has to be done, but like I said, with modern day advancements, we could surely find a cure for such things, and killing them because they're just lesser species is VERY human isn't it.
The rats were innocent in the whole thing, and had no option in the matter. Other comparisons come to mind. If a human carried something that could spread, he/she'd be put into quarantine and have ALL possible methods done to keep him/her alive, no matter what the cost. But a rat? Nah, lets just kill every single one because they're not worth the mighty human's effort.

And no I wouldn't forgive, because I'd expect you to respect my human free will and save the animal over me. I know how strange it must sound to you, but I am just very deeply passionate on the subject.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

Last time I checked brain dead people do not necessarily carry deadly diseases..

Nor do all animals. Although, I think I understand what you mean now by pest; animals that infect and kill humans.

Originally Posted by RickOShay

If you want to believe that the lives of animals are just as or more important than humans, that is fine, but I will say again I am glad that most of the world does not think this way.. and I am sure the people in Tohoku right now are glad that the people in charge are focusing their attention on them and not a bunch of cows.

I know, and I know that my ideals would never be accepted or even considered. I'm passionate about the subject, but not disillusioned.
I do remember seeing the images of Japanese people carrying their pets with them for dear life. All I say is, if it was a field of their pets, or maybe your pets, facing an horrific death, would you think differently?

Originally Posted by RobinMask

At the risk of a morality debate, are you seriously saying it's okay to hurt a person because they hurt someone/something else? If so, and you're okay with stooping to their level and being somewhat hypocritical regarding how inflicting pain is wrong, then how do you judge what level of retaliation is appropriate? Also - in this specific case - how do you justify causing pain to other family members, and disrespecting the remains of an eldery woman who is innocent?

Sure, I will admit being somewhat hypocritical here. But yes, I am seriously suggesting that an eye for an eye is true justice, and I don't mind stooping to their level one bit to see the animals avenged.
Yes, your example case is very subjective, and bringing innocent family members into it is something I wouldn't like. When you only mentioned the guy in your original post, I assumed that no one else was involved, just him and the grandma. But only something that drastic and close to his heart can drive it home to him. Sure, you can trash his house to a pulp, vandalize his car, but all that is something that can be gotten over. Only something that deeply personal to him can truly bring him to the animal's level of physical suffering. Don't forget, animals truly hate losing family as much as humans.

Originally Posted by RobinMask

On a less subjective note, I would rather test medicines initially on animals than on people. There's been many cases with humans being critically injured, disabled or killed for having volunteered to test drugs. I would rather test on animals, specifically vermin and pests, because - as mentioned - they harbour diseases and the like and are more of a plague to mankind than a benefit, and that way test on humans when I have a relative idea that it's safe to. Yes, I also value humans more than animals. Like RickOShay said, I would 99% of the time choose a human life over that of an animals, if your mother and your pet rat were both dying and you could only choose one, which would you pick? Final comment, yes, testing on rats alone would be stupid, but, as I said, surely it's better to test on them initially before moving onto humans?

I realise this is a very subjective, emotive argument, but I really think there's little else to be said that other members haven't already said, and much more eloquently too.

A fairly uniform counter to what you said there, but animal's immune systems are SO much different to human's, that any medicines that work on animals will probably not transfer to people, nullifying most results. Plus, I would deeply oppose any treatment offered to me that has roots in animal testing. I know, that's a lot. Good job I've never had to go to hospital in my life so far.

As to the mother / rat thing, believe it or not my mother and I have both had this discussion. We both (VERY seriously) agreed that the rat would be saved ahead of her, even if it meant her dying. It may sound crazy... even having that conversation, but that's how deeply we care for animals.

Agreed, I think if I say anymore I'll be labeled as a psycho (if I haven't been already), and I've said all I can say. I know I'm in a minority with my views, and everyone else greatly value humans more. And although I would strongly debate that in my own circumstances, it won't go very far. I just wanted to voice my opinion at the start, because when I saw the majority of responses, it's something I just felt a strong drive to do.

[dogsbody70]

It seems to me that we are happy to use Animals for our own purposes.

Before animals were domesticated they fought for survival.

Humans use animals-- and too many abuse them.


We are Animals ourselves.

There is far more variety in the non-human world. Nature is astounding.

I dislike wild animals kept in Zoos so we can gloat at them in their little cages. That is so cruel.

We are responsible and should respect the rights of animals, not be happy to use them just for Ourselves.

They are abused in laborotories, Bears kept in long term agony in order to take their Bile. factory farming---------should we humans be proud of ourselves?

[DaisukeKigurou]

Shut up dogbody, I love Japan more than anything else. They're doing the best they can, I see your one of the P.E.T.A retards aren't you? I don't care if I get banned for this I need to say it. You, my good sir a butthurt. You have a problem with Japan, and this was your utmost best opportunity to have a temper tantrum about Japan and show how much of a suck up you're towards america.

Is it not? Don't lie to me, I know your true intentions. You TAKE advantage of some propagandic LIE, and use it to show your hatred towards Japan.

This goes much more deeper than, animals, does it not?

Let me answer something before I go on, I love my dog. But if my family is suffering, if my friend was about to die. I'd rather save the friend or family member than my dog.

You see, you don't get that because your like Onision. Closedminded and born into a country and instills this thought of being that way. Also the obsession about animals before humans NEEDS to stop. Humans take care of animals. Without them, they'd all die or revert to the wild.


Japan is tied up right now doing the right thing, rather than doing the stupid "****nt way" of doing things, and saving an animal, before a human. Remember hurricane Katrina? All they did was save animals.


This is NOT like the BP oil spill. If that happened in Japan, Japan would be on that like an Otaku to a bookstore or like me getting a ticket to Japan to get out of this, god forsaken piece of ***** country. Japan VALUES animal life and has an obsession over animals.


Believe me, I am a shintohist and have a few Japanese friends. But when it comes to what is happening RIGHT now, people want the help. But they also want to know their pets and family are safe. But it goes by priority.


ALSO, DO NOT BRING UP THE WHALING BS. That was all propaganda too >_<


This is human life we're talking about, animals are on the list. But they come later. When people are all taken care of, then the animals will come next. BTW, Japan is allowing animal rescue searches.


It's not like they're not allowing for such a thing....

[RobinMask]

Originally Posted by DaisukeKigurou

Shut up dogbody, I love Japan more than anything else. They're doing the best they can, I see your one of the P.E.T.A retards aren't you? I don't care if I get banned for this I need to say it. You, my good sir a butthurt. You have a problem with Japan, and this was your utmost best opportunity to have a temper tantrum about Japan and show how much of a suck up you're towards america.

Is it not? Don't lie to me, I know your true intentions. You TAKE advantage of some propagandic LIE, and use it to show your hatred towards Japan.

Oh why, oh why do I respond to these types of things?

Firstly, if you have a point to make then please make it, however do not attack someone simply as you disagree with what they say. Dogsbody appears to love Japan very much, she has Japanese friends and a high level of interest in the country, and I have seen from Dogs a high level of understanding about Japan's history and culture that many of us couldn't even comprehend. She is also passionate about animals. Is it not possible to support a love for both? Is she supposed to love everything about Japan like some ignorant, obssessed teenager simply because 'omg, it's Japan, it has to be right! Animals are kawaii desu!', I think not.

Secondly, we all disagree with people. You saw that I myself disagreed with a fellow member just a few posts previous, however I hope I did not stoop so low as to call them a 'butthurt' and they were very mature in their response, also. I could read what they said, understand better their point of view, and - whilst I still don't entirely agree - it enabled me to rethink some of my own positions and understand their own better.

You'll be amazed how much you learn if you listen to people and don't attack them.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Umihito

Basically, yeah. For the majority at least, just like many other things. Only humans can screw up our own planet and not even be bothered to change our petty luxuries when it concerns our future.
If we didn't exist, animals would be MUCH better caretakers of the planet.
I know that may be straying a bit, but I'm just using that as an example of our 'moral compass' as humanity as a whole.

This isn't really my fight, but the above statement is based in nothing but conjecture.
Congratulating animals for not screwing up the planet is like giving a baby the Nobel Peace Prize. The baby didn't do anything to deserve it, and she doesn't know any better. I am not sure how you can say animals would be "MUCH better caretakers of the planet" when they don't have the intelligence to know what the planet is. All animals know is survival. Whether or not their personal survival is helpful or hurtful to the planet is of no consequence and is beyond the comprehension of any animal. Animals have no moral compass.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

Oh why, oh why do I respond to these types of things?

Firstly, if you have a point to make then please make it, however do not attack someone simply as you disagree with what they say. Dogsbody appears to love Japan very much, she has Japanese friends and a high level of interest in the country, and I have seen from Dogs a high level of understanding about Japan's history and culture that many of us couldn't even comprehend. She is also passionate about animals. Is it not possible to support a love for both? Is she supposed to love everything about Japan like some ignorant, obssessed teenager simply because 'omg, it's Japan, it has to be right! Animals are kawaii desu!', I think not.

Secondly, we all disagree with people. You saw that I myself disagreed with a fellow member just a few posts previous, however I hope I did not stoop so low as to call them a 'butthurt' and they were very mature in their response, also. I could read what they said, understand better their point of view, and - whilst I still don't entirely agree - it enabled me to rethink some of my own positions and understand their own better.

You'll be amazed how much you learn if you listen to people and don't attack them.

I agree there is no need for outright name calling in this instance, and a bunch of weird accusations that make no sense, and sound more like a whimsical rant (a common theme in DK's posts), which shows DK knows nothing about dogsbody. Sucking up to America?? I do not know what America even has to do with this discussion, but dogsbody is a 70 something british woman. At least learn a bit about somebody before you go attack them.