American in Hiroshima...

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by noodle

@ samurai007

Not legally, but the US practically it did enter the war prior to pearl harbour... You really think the americans would let their ships get sunk without fighting?

In 1941 Britain ran out of money needed to buy arms from the US. But in March the *Lend & Lease Act* was passed, letting the president give away unlimited amounts of arms for free to allies.

In June 1941 US forces occupied Iceland, which you should know was close to the "danger zone"/"comabt zone". But German submarines got the strict order *NOT to use force against US ships*.

On 5th of September a US destroyer was told about a German submarine in the area by a british plane and immediately attacked the sub, which by the way, escaped. The US president remained silent at first, because the incident had been provoked by the US but on 11th September he ordered the US Navy to attack any german vessel as soon as they see it, "practically" declaring war on Germany.

On 17th September US warships started to escort the British from America to Iceland where the Royal Navy took over. Since Iceland was right in the middle of the battlefield, US ships soon came under fire. On 16th October submarines attacked a convoy that was escorted by british, american and french warships. 10/11 got killed.

The first US warship to be sunk on 31st October while protecting a british convoy.

Publicly Roosevelt said "he tried to avoid battle, but it begun anyway. History will tell, who fired the first shots."

Privately he said according to Winston Churchill: "I will never declare war, I will make war. If I ask congress to declare war, they will debate the matter for three months."

As you can see legally Germany declared war on the United States on December, but realistically the US declared it on germany in September or sooner.

As for japan a similar strategy was used by the US against Japan and it is one reason the conspiracy theories that the US government had advanced knowledge about the attack on Pearl Harbour. (though, consipiracy theories are just theories, the US government would have been stupid to ignore the signs that were pointing to a Japnese attack on Pearl Harbour, which was a huge tragedy btw, like anything and everything in a war/battle!)


Long story short, the people of USA might not have wanted a war for the reasons you stated, but the president sure did. And he started it unofficialy until Pearl Harbour because then the citizans of america fealt under threat for the first time in this war...

All of those actions were defensive in nature, including Iceland and the USS Greer vs the German sub.

UNITED STATES FORCES IN ICELAND
The US Navy

Iceland wanted British forces out of the country as they were afraid that they would become a target for German attacks. Since winter of 1940, the Iceland govt began asking to instead be protected by US forces as they were neutral, and thus less likely to be attacked by Germany. Also, the British liked it because it'd free 20,000 troops stationed there to reinforce their losses in Africa. America was still very hesitant to send troops there, and it took months before events spiraled to the point that it was agreed upon.

The USS Greer had been warned about a German U-boat attacking ships in the area and had picked up and maintained sonar contact on the U-boat for 3 hours without "immediately attacking" the sub, as you put it. They simply watched it, until suddenly the U-boat fired a torpedo at the US ship. The Greer turned sharply and was able to avoid the torpedo, then fired back with depth charges, then avoided a 2nd torpedo, and fired again. The sub then ran away, but that is why FDR said "History will tell, who fired the 1st shots." It was the axis. Yes, we were giving supplies to England, yes, we were trying to protect the geographically important Iceland from invasion, but we did not fire first, they did, at the Greer, at Pearl Harbor, at our merchant vessels, etc.

And I don't think FDR knew about Pearl Harbor. If he had, he could have warned them to expect an attack, and then still have the Japanese make the 1st move, but we'd have been ready for them and lost far fewer ships and men. It would still have been an all-out attack upon our forces sitting in our own harbor, and plenty of cause to go to war.

[samurai007]

By the way, for any Japanese reading this, ignore what that guy said. You are welcome to visit Pearl Harbor or anywhere in the US, and by FAR most Americans will treat you warmly and kindly. There is no grudge in the hearts of most Americans.

[noodle]

samurai007, i'm not gonna say anything against the who attacked first, cos lets face it, i wasn't there and you weren't there... but its interesting how an american author wrote that the german's attacked first, where as european history books say america attacked first!!

I guess we'll never know, but oh well............

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by noodle

samurai007, i'm not gonna say anything against the who attacked first, cos lets face it, i wasn't there and you weren't there... but its interesting how an american author wrote that the german's attacked first, where as european history books say america attacked first!!

I guess we'll never know, but oh well............

Here's more exacting, minute by minute account, if you're interested:

USS Greer

The "Greer Incident" occurred 4 September At 0840 that morning Greer, carrying mail and passengers to Argentia, was signaled by a British plane that a Nazi submarine had crash-dived some 10 miles ahead. Forty minutes later the DD's soundman picked up the underseas marauder, and Greer began to trail the submarine. The plane, running low on fuel, dropped four depth charges at 10:32 and returned to base, while Greer continued to dog the U-boat.

Two hours later the German ship began a series of radical maneuvers and Greer's lookouts could see her pass about 100 yards off. An impulse bubble at 12:48 warned Greer that a torpedo had been fired. Ringing up flank speed, hard left rudder, Greer watched the torpedo pass 100 yards astern and then charged in for attack. She laid a pattern of eight depth charges, and less than two minutes later a second torpedo passed 300 yards to port.

Greer lost sound contact during the maneuvers, and began to quarter the area in search of the U-boat. After 2 hours, she reestablished sound contact and laid down a pattern of 11 depth charges before discontinuing the engagement. Greer had held the German raider in sound contact 3 hours and 28 minutes; had evaded two torpedoes fired at her; and with her 19 depth charges had become the first American ship in World War II to attack the Germans.

When news of the unprovoked attack against an American ship on the high seas reached the United States public feeling ran high. President Roosevelt seized this occasion to make another of his famed "fireside chats," one in which he brought America nearer to outright involvement in the European war. Declaring that Germany had been guilty of an act of piracy, President Roosevelt in effect unleashed American ships and planes for offensive action as he stated `'in the waters which we deem necessary for our defense, American naval vessels and American planes will no longer wait until Axis submarines lurking under the water, or Axis raiders on the surface of the sea, strike their deadly blow—first." The period of "undeclared war" in the Atlantic had begun.

Perhaps the Germans mistook the British plane dropping its depth charges for the US ship's? Or the fact that the ship was tailing them and keeping them in sonar range as a hostile act?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by samurai007

Here's more exacting, minute by minute account, if you're interested:

USS Greer


Perhaps the Germans mistook the British plane dropping its depth charges for the US ship's? Or the fact that the ship was tailing them and keeping them in sonar range as a hostile act?

Again, this is from an american!!! And like i said, there is no need for me to argue that point because you will stick to that side of the story, and i'll stick to the side of the story written by English, germans and french!!! I could ask you, why would the English who are USA's allies tell a different story?? seems like a strange coiincidence right? but i'm not gonna get into that as I was NOT there!!

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Samurai001,

All of what you said was pretty much true, but you are not seeing it right. The US was concerned about its economy. That might very well be the reason it chose such a cunning tactic. I did forget to mention I doubt the US would have stepped in if the rest of the allies had started winning the war alone anyway. Still, the real financial blunder for the US would be haveing Japan colonize Australia (which was its main target land) and Germany colonize Britan (which one can only assume would have happened if they were not stopped). In the style of war that was fought this tactic is easy to guess the outcome, so smart to use, if you can come up with the excuses for long enough. Also, the US was on its way developing the most powerful weapon ever made. Do you think that possibly delaying the war as long as possible until they were armed with damn hell would not have been a smart thing? You can brush what I am saying off as theory if you like. There are few people who can tell you what was said behind the closed doors of the US generals. But you can not deny it is possibley true. They were fighting 2 super powers who were attacking 2 important allies. They did the same thing twice, entered a room with an exhausted enemy and took a clean shot. I am trained to identify war and combat, you can call it coincidence, but if it was they are bloody lucky bastards!

Hatredcopter,

Dont be so silly. I dislike cowards, so what. You dont agree with me? The US turned down the option of a ground assault on Japan and roasted 2 cities full of women and children. Said it was 'better in the long run'. How? You tryin to tell me a US soldier cant tell the difference between a man and a child through his scope? Would they have killed even more innocents had they fought on the ground? That is even worse idea. Then they did the same thing in Vietnam, roasted civilians to cut off their enemies food supply, why? Because they could not win any other way, and would prefer the deaths of innocents over admitting defeat. And the shit they did in Afghanistan, I cant prove it, but I have trained alongside marines, and heard it first hand, and it is no better. And consider in Iraq much of what they did has been proved, I beleive the stories fro Afghan too. If you dont think this kind of thing is cowardly, then that may be why I dont like you. But it IS REAL. That you cant deny. And I dont like it, okay, so leave me alone. I am proud of who I am.

My degree (with Honors) was in History, with a specialty on WW2, so you may be "trained to recognize war", but I know history. You are simply wrong about your theories, and your evidence in faulty. For instance, you claimed that the US held off from going to war to give us more time to work on the Manhattan Project to build the atomic bomb. But the effort to build atomic weapons was not even started in the US until Dec 18, 1941, 11 days AFTER we entered the war! The Manhattan Project

And yes, invading Japan by land, sea, and air would have killed millions more Japanese and Americans. The Japanese were training civilians to fight to the last man, woman, and child. Operation Downfall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7 to 4 million American casualties, including 400,000 to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

The atomic bombs ended the war the fastest and with the least number of casualties for all sides. The Japanese govt was unanimous after Hiroshima to keep fighting, necessitating the bombing of Nagasaki. Even after Nagasaki, and the lie that the US would keep dropping these bombs (we had no more, and couldn't build any more for months because we needed more fissionable material), the Japanese govt was deadlocked on whether to keep fighting or surrender. The Emperor finally broke the tie (which is the only time he even gets to vote), and chose to surrender. If even 1 more Japanese official had chosen to keep fighting, the invasion would have gone ahead and killed millions. There's no way they would have surrendered without the bombs, at least not until we'd fought our way through Kyushu and most of the way up Honshu.

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by noodle

Again, this is from an american!!! And like i said, there is no need for me to argue that point because you will stick to that side of the story, and i'll stick to the side of the story written by English, germans and french!!! I could ask you, why would the English who are USA's allies tell a different story?? seems like a strange coiincidence right? but i'm not gonna get into that as I was NOT there!!

Can you quote some of these European sources so I can evaluate them? I've never seen them, and I've never heard about this European claim (unlike the fairly famous Japanese attempts to whitewash WW2 history textbooks).

[noodle]

Originally Posted by samurai007

Can you quote some of these European sources so I can evaluate them? I've never seen them, and I've never heard about this European claim (unlike the fairly famous Japanese attempts to whitewash WW2 history textbooks).

lol, i'll get back to you on that!!! History isn't my field of study, and i definately hated it whilst doing it in school!!! so i'll check and get back to you!!

[noodle]

samurai007, i just checked online on some french sites.... it seems i was wrong... but unlike american reports, it did say that Greer didn't have a flag, or markers (something like that) to show that it was american, and because it followed the sub for a couple of hours, according to Commander Fraatz, he fealt that they were in danger and didn't realise that he was dealing with americans.... And like you said previously, he fealt that the actions of the greer and the british plane seemed rather hostile, thus the need to react!!!

I apologize, i guess not reading your history books for a couple of years doesn't help!!

[Enkidu22]

For all people who hold USA side in this discussion: USA become major world power becouse they made tons of money selling weapons and supplies to european countries during WW I and WW II. They would join WW II even if JN didn't attack Pearl Harbour becouse if Axis won the war they wouldn't get paid for all supplies sold to allied nations under Land Lease program! Also most (if not all) of WW II specialists agree that USA was preparing to go to war since it begun (hence the Manhattan program), japanese officers knew this and they wanted to make the first strike.

Also in Wietnam losses amongst civilians were highest in the history of warfare! And they still say that they went there to help! I only hope it won't end like that in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's not like I'm anti-american, every nation has it's sins, but really it amuses me how people don't understand their own history.