Geisha --- is it art?

[Aniki]

Yup, I think JF forum has a serious rival here

[Tsuruko]

Nah, as TM is very specific, mainly cultural studies, such as Geisha and Kimono, that's all. Maybe threads on other cultural subjects, but not anime or really modern fashion at all.

[Paul11]

Originally Posted by Tsuruko

Nah, as TM is very specific, mainly cultural studies, such as Geisha and Kimono, that's all. Maybe threads on other cultural subjects, but not anime or really modern fashion at all.

Have you read dalby's book on Geisha? She was an anthropologist who "became" a geisha in the course of her study.

[TalnSG]

I expect ignorance from AlphaDuck, but Tenchu, I would have expected a little more intellegence from. So much for that.

What too many people fail to note here (thanks for trying Paul) is that geishas are not exclusively for the entertainment of men. There are times when other women (usually of rank/nobility) also enjoyed being entertained by these artists.

Stop defining "entertainment" as sexually based. It is not the critical element of a geisha's ability to entertain her clients. It is her ability to host and to perform her art. Which includes being a very talented dancer, a reasonably skilled musician (or better), and a compelling story teller.

You who have maligned her as not being an artist still consider barely comptetant dancers on TV shows and in music videos artists, but a geisha spends years training to dance, not and hour or two. You consider a standup comic or professional story-teller an artist, well a geisha must be even more talented in this because she must gear her stories not to a general feel of a crowd, but the specific topics her exclusive audience relates to.

If you still think of a geisha as a high class call girl - which I would also consider a talented artist of another sort - you never will understand the difference.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

I expect ignorance from AlphaDuck, but Tenchu, I would have expected a little more intellegence from. So much for that.

What too many people fail to note here (thanks for trying Paul) is that geishas are not exclusively for the entertainment of men. There are times when other women (usually of rank/nobility) also enjoyed being entertained by these artists.

Stop defining "entertainment" as sexually based. It is not the critical element of a geisha's ability to entertain her clients. It is her ability to host and to perform her art. Which includes being a very talented dancer, a reasonably skilled musician (or better), and a compelling story teller.

You who have maligned her as not being an artist still consider barely comptetant dancers on TV shows and in music videos artists, but a geisha spends years training to dance, not and hour or two. You consider a standup comic or professional story-teller an artist, well a geisha must be even more talented in this because she must gear her stories not to a general feel of a crowd, but the specific topics her exclusive audience relates to.

If you still think of a geisha as a high class call girl - which I would also consider a talented artist of another sort - you never will understand the difference.

I am in agreement with TALNSG. A lot of people thinks that Geisha are prostitute. They are not. While most said that Wikipedia is not accurate (And I think, due to this reputation, many of you will reply to this saying that its the opposite of whatever wikipedia quoted), their article on Geisha is fairly accurate (Quoted from Wikipeida Geisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"There remains some confusion, even within Japan, about the nature of the geisha profession. Geisha are portrayed as prostitutes in much Western popular culture. However, geisha do not engage in paid sex with clients. Their purpose being to entertain their customer, be it by reciting verse, playing musical instruments, or engaging in light conversation. Geisha engagements may include flirting with men and playful innuendos; however, clients know that nothing more can be expected. In a social style that is uniquely Japanese, men are amused by the illusion of that which is never to be.

Geisha have been confused with the high-class courtesans of the Edo period known as oiran, from whom they evolved. Like geisha, oiran wore elaborate hairstyles and white makeup, but oiran tied their obi in the front not, as is commonly thought, for easy removal but, according to anthropologist Liza Dalby, because that was the practice of married women at the time.

During the Edo period, prostitution was legal. Prostitutes such as the oiran worked within walled-in districts licensed by the government. In the seventeenth century, the oiran sometimes employed men called "geisha" to perform at their parties. Therefore, the first geisha were men. In the late eighteenth century, dancing women called "odoriko" and newly popular female "geisha" began entertaining men at banquets in unlicensed districts. Some were apprehended for illegal prostitution and sent to the licensed quarters, where there was a strict distinction between geisha and prostitutes, and the former were forbidden to sell sex. In contrast, "machi geisha", who worked outside the licensed districts, often engaged in illegal prostitution.

In 1872, shortly after the Meiji Restoration, the new government passed a law liberating "prostitutes (shōgi) and geisha (geigi)." The wording of this statute was the subject of controversy. Some officials thought that prostitutes and geisha worked at different ends of the same profession – selling sex – and that all prostitutes should henceforth be called "geisha". In the end, the government decided to maintain a line between the two groups, arguing that "geisha" were more refined and should not be soiled by association with prostitutes.

Also, geisha working in onsen towns such as Atami are dubbed onsen geisha. Onsen geisha have been given a bad reputation due to the prevalence of prostitutes in such towns who market themselves as 'geisha', as well as sordid rumors of dance routines like 'Shallow River' (which involves the 'dancers' lifting the skirts of their kimono higher and higher). In contrast to these 'one-night geisha', the true onsen geisha are in fact competent dancers and musicians. However, the autobiography of Sayo Masuda, an onsen geisha who worked in Nagano Prefecture in the 1930s, reveals that in the past such women were often under intense pressure to sell sex"

The word Geisha - 芸者 - really translate to "Art (芸)" and "People/Person (者 )". By tradition, the ingredient of money traded sex was NOT part of the geisha practice.

[SpectralHarlequin]

To me, art and beauty are two interchangable words. But...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I would say that Geisha are living works of art. Even though they are practitioners of "old" art forms and mediums, I think they still maintain their individuality.

~Most speak, but not all speak the same language.~ and...many people know how to use eloquent language to it's full effect, but everyone has their personal preferences, and so it is with most other things. Just think of a human personality as a glass prism instead of either a black or white sheet of paper. If you simply hold the prism and put it up to your naked eyes, it will appear as nothing more than a tranquil shard. But when you shine the light through it, you will see a spectrum of every color the human senses can detect.

*I feel stupid now*

~ S.A.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by SpectralHarlequin

To me, art and beauty are two interchangable words. But...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I would say that Geisha are living works of art. Even though they are practitioners of "old" art forms and mediums, I think they still maintain their individuality.

~Most speak, but not all speak the same language.~ and...many people know how to use eloquent language to it's full effect, but everyone has their personal preferences, and so it is with most other things. Just think of a human personality as a glass prism instead of either a black or white sheet of paper. If you simply hold the prism and put it up to your naked eyes, it will appear as nothing more than a tranquil shard. But when you shine the light through it, you will see a spectrum of every color the human senses can detect.

*I feel stupid now*

~ S.A.

Why? That was a good analogy.

[SpectralHarlequin]

...Thank you. <3

I only realize that my opinions, no matter how believable to me, are not fact. That's why I don't like to spend a large amount of effort trying to make them more persuasive to others. I couldn't help myself this time though...and I'm still ashamed. It all depends on what is true to the individual. If they think that something is right, then that is okay as long as they don't try to bombard others with what they constitute as absolute fact.

AND that whole paragraph I just typed explaining opinions is my opinion. lololol

~ S.A.

[GkScott]

Originally Posted by SpectralHarlequin

To me, art and beauty are two interchangable words. But...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

I would say that Geisha are living works of art. Even though they are practitioners of "old" art forms and mediums, I think they still maintain their individuality.

~Most speak, but not all speak the same language.~ and...many people know how to use eloquent language to it's full effect, but everyone has their personal preferences, and so it is with most other things. Just think of a human personality as a glass prism instead of either a black or white sheet of paper. If you simply hold the prism and put it up to your naked eyes, it will appear as nothing more than a tranquil shard. But when you shine the light through it, you will see a spectrum of every color the human senses can detect.

*I feel stupid now*

~ S.A.

I have to disagree.
" Actually beauty is universal. There is an absolute principle in this world that underlies the appearance and disappearance of all phenomena. That is what we call karma. It is constant and immutable, and gives rise to universal values such as beauty and morality." - direct quote from Dr. Tetsuzo Tanigawa.-again quoted from Geisha, a life by Mineko Iwasaki.

This next comment is directed at Alphaducky you belligerent, blithering idiot. Geiko's sole purpose is to entertain PERIOD. Yes its quite true that when the geisha profession first began all of there customers were men, becuase all geisha had to entertain in the red light district, along side the yujo, or prostitutes. But only because they had to entertain in the red light districts were all customers men, becuase it is very highly unlikely that a woman would go to a redlight distrist to have a nice time with hookers. But once they had their own districts in which to live and work in did women become customers. Geisha enjoyed being around those of their own sex rather than men. And finally Geisha are indeed art, in all forms, visual, audiol, etc. The whole comment about geisha not being great singers, dancers, etc. I quite srongly disagree. Geisha dances are quite creative, and by far the best dancing i've ever seen. trust me i know, my sisters were in ballet, my cousins in tap and jaz, and my friend is a krumper(although krumping is hardly an art). but back to the point rather me go on an endless rant. Geisha are the beat singers, dancers, etc. found anywhere in this universe. You even said geisha creativity is limited and they are taught evrything they know about dance and music, this is only partly true. A geisha may be taught how to view certain things, one of these is to use true emotion whilst dancing. for example everything pertaining to geisha life and culture is open for interpretation, except A) They are absolutely not in any from of fashion prortitutes, nor will they ever be. B) Geisha are always beutiful in one way or another. If not physically attractive than through their arts. if not through arts than physically. if through neither of these than through her glittering personality and wit. If through none of these than this women can not be called a geisha, she is just a boring bar hostess.
All geisha dances are up for interpratation as well. If a geiko is dancing 'Kurokami' then a whole plethora of opinions is open for discussion. This dance's message is concrete: Sadness. But one cannot tell what said geisha is feeling sadness over, perhaps at leaving their long apprenticeship behind them and entering the adult geisha world where they will ahve to rely on talent and wit as opposed to an extravagent costume and childlike innocence. 'kurokami' seeing as its traditionally performed at the ceremony when a maiko leaves maikohood and enters the adult geisha world. or Perhaps a brokenheart over a previous lover or boyfriend, or maybe recent death that hit them hard. In all cases geisha are art, through the way they dress, talk, comport and carry themselves, as well as their whole way of life all art. Geisha are the art, artist, as well as an art. In much the sameway as God is the trinity the father, the son and the holy spirit, ne? Geisha are a irreplacable part of japanese culture, as is kabuki,noh and shamisen music, wthout the shamisen there would be no geisha, kabuki, and no Noh. As is the oterway without Geisha,shamisen, kabuki, and noh there would be no japan. I will no go to sleep because I'm done eduacting idiots for the day. I beleive I've made my point.
Sainara Min'na-san!

[MMM]

Look closely and see that Alphaduck was banned.