JapanForum.com  


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
(#1 (permalink))
Old
Whatsifsowhatsit (Offline)
New to JF
 
Posts: 2
Join Date: Oct 2008
Question "De" vs. "ni" with verbs! - 10-30-2008, 01:11 PM

Hello,

I was wondering about the usage of the articles "de" and "ni" with certain Japanese verbs. I know that the article "ni" is used with the verbs "iru" and "aru", but I thought those were all the verbs that used that article instead of "de" when it comes to the specification of location (ha! Rhyme.) But it seems from some sentences I came across while using Rosetta Stone that there are other verbs that also use "ni" instead of "de", such as "tatsu" and, I think, "suwaru".

An example of such a sentence is:
"O-kaa-san wa daidokoro ni suwatte imasu."

I just thought (it seems obvious when writing it down like this) that maybe this is because the "-te imasu" form is being used and there's still imasu in there? I checked and just noticed there was no "de" used in sentences with "ryouri shite imasu" and such (nor was there "ni", but still).

Thanks,
Vincent.
Reply With Quote
(#2 (permalink))
Old
chryuop's Avatar
chryuop (Offline)
JF Old Timer
 
Posts: 704
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Oklahoma, USA
10-30-2008, 01:53 PM

Ok, a little bit of confusion here. I go backwards and I start from your last question. 料理しています (ryouri shite imasu) doesn't have any particle because it is all one verb. There are some nouns to which you can add the verb "to do" (suru) and they become a verb. Ryouri is a noun which means cooking (as in Italian cooking, Japanese cooking...sorry English is not my language, hopefully I got the right word hee hee). When you add the verb "to do" becomes "to cook". It is the same for many other verbs, probably one of the verbs you might meet more often in written exercises is 勉強する benkyou suru(the study of something+to do=to study).

Now as per the 2 particles I would suggest you learn when to use them instead of learning which verbs use them. They have more uses, but the one in common that mixes you up is the following. They both indicate a location, but they differ in if the action is carried out in that location. If there is actually an action which is being carried out in that location, then you will use で (de). If there is not an action going on, but the location mainly indicates the ending place of the verb then you will use に (ni).
I will give you a couple of examples, hopefully they will help you.

レストランで食べる = resutoran de taberu (eat at a restaurant). In the restaurant you actually carry out an action, which eating.
公園で待っている = kouen de matteiru (waiting in a park). It is in the park where you actually carry out the action of waiting.
家に帰る = uchi ni kaeru (go back home). You don't have any action going on at home (at least not that is mentioned by the verb kaeru). In that case the location shows the place where the verb end its function.
電車に乗る = densha ni noru (getting on a train). Even in this case the action of getting on a train finishes when you are on the train, so there is no actual action going on on the train itself.

Unfortunately sometimes it is not so easy for someone who is not well trained with the Japanese language to tell the difference. There are still verbs that puzzle me and in my head they should use a de, but they use ni....so only practice will help you.
For example, even tho I see the action being carried out and not ending in the location, these verbs use ni and not de.
友達の家に泊まる = tomodachi no uchi ni tomaru (spending the night at a friends house). In my head I see an action going on, but not according to Japanese's point of view.
東京に住んでいる = tokyo ni sundeiru (abitare a tokyo). Even in this case I see the action not ending, but being carried out yet the particle is ni.

So practice, practice, practice, only practice will make you meet all exceptions.
P.S. I am not an expert in the language, so there might be errors. If a native speaker or someone who knows better than me corrects me, takes their words for correct.

Last edited by chryuop : 10-30-2008 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
(#3 (permalink))
Old
Whatsifsowhatsit (Offline)
New to JF
 
Posts: 2
Join Date: Oct 2008
Talking 10-30-2008, 04:30 PM

Thanks for your reply, chryuop!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
Ok, a little bit of confusion here. I go backwards and I start from your last question. 料理しています (ryouri shite imasu) doesn't have any particle because it is all one verb. There are some nouns to which you can add the verb "to do" (suru) and they become a verb. Ryouri is a noun which means cooking (as in Italian cooking, Japanese cooking...sorry English is not my language, hopefully I got the right word hee hee). When you add the verb "to do" becomes "to cook". It is the same for many other verbs, probably one of the verbs you might meet more often in written exercises is 勉強する benkyou suru(the study of something+to do=to study).
Okay, I get all that. But what I was referring to was the use of "ryouri shite imasu" in a sentence like, I dunno, to go with the structure used before (not to be sexist or anything... ehehe):

"O-kaa-san wa daidokoro ni/de ryouri shite imasu."

I guess I should've called it the verb "shite imasu", to be more precise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
Now as per the 2 particles I would suggest you learn when to use them instead of learning which verbs use them. They have more uses, but the one in common that mixes you up is the following. They both indicate a location, but they differ in if the action is carried out in that location. If there is actually an action which is being carried out in that location, then you will use で (de). If there is not an action going on, but the location mainly indicates the ending place of the verb then you will use に (ni).
Well, I did know that, but it does help in that I can see now that sitting and standing aren't really actions so much as states (arguably..) Thanks for that

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
レストランで食べる = resutoran de taberu (eat at a restaurant). In the restaurant you actually carry out an action, which eating.
公園で待っている = kouen de matteiru (waiting in a park). It is in the park where you actually carry out the action of waiting.
家に帰る = uchi ni kaeru (go back home). You don't have any action going on at home (at least not that is mentioned by the verb kaeru). In that case the location shows the place where the verb end its function.
電車に乗る = densha ni noru (getting on a train). Even in this case the action of getting on a train finishes when you are on the train, so there is no actual action going on on the train itself.
Okay, well, I guess I see that, but it is a bit strange at places. For example, I wouldn't think waiting is more of an action being performed than standing or sitting. So for that, I will actually have to remember this per verb. But again, that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
Unfortunately sometimes it is not so easy for someone who is not well trained with the Japanese language to tell the difference. There are still verbs that puzzle me and in my head they should use a de, but they use ni....so only practice will help you.
Right

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
For example, even tho I see the action being carried out and not ending in the location, these verbs use ni and not de.
友達の家に泊まる = tomodachi no uchi ni tomaru (spending the night at a friends house). In my head I see an action going on, but not according to Japanese's point of view.
東京に住んでいる = tokyo ni sundeiru (abitare a tokyo). Even in this case I see the action not ending, but being carried out yet the particle is ni.
Well, yes, but these, especially the latter one, do make sense to me. I guess it's always the question whether it's an actual action, but if you say "living somewhere" is an action, you could also say "existing somewhere" (iru/aru) is an action. Anyway, yeah... there's a number of verbs where I guess I'll just have to learn which to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chryuop View Post
So practice, practice, practice, only practice will make you meet all exceptions.
P.S. I am not an expert in the language, so there might be errors. If a native speaker or someone who knows better than me corrects me, takes their words for correct.
Okay, I'll be sure to check if all this is correct at other sources, then. Still, you did help a lot. Thank you very much for the detailed answer!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Copyright 2003-2006 Virtual Japan.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC6