「の」と「こと」

[Lucas89]

I tried to search the forums but had a hard time finding anything on the question i want to ask, so i thought i would create a new thread for it.

Anyway my question is the difference between の and こと in the following sentence.

友達と話すのを楽しみにしている。
友達と話すことを楽しみにしている。

As far as i know i think both of these sentences means the same thing.
"I look forward to speaking with my friend(s)"

But i don't know what the difference between の and こと is in this case, is こと slightly politer?
I say only in this case because i know you can say things like 僕のこと where as far as i know something like 僕のの would make no sense lol.

Anyway any help would be appreciated

[Nagoyankee]

The only difference is that you will hear the first sentence much more often in conversation than in writing. Likewise, you will be using the second sentence more often in writing.

This has nothing to do with politeness. If you want to add any 'politeness', you do it with the other words, and not with の or　こと. By 'the other words', I mean お友達、お話しする、しております, etc.

I often hear Japanese-learners say "Verb + を" without の or　こと. That sounds very foreign to us. It's often the smallest words (in many cases, particles) that make your Japanese sound better or worse. It's rarely the big words.

[Lucas89]

Thankyou Nagoyankee, so の will be more common in conversation and こと more common in writing.
Since i write everything how i would say it i didn't really think about it before so i'm glad that it is out of the way now

Originally Posted by Nagoyankee

I often hear Japanese-learners say "Verb + を" without の or　こと. That sounds very foreign to us. It's often the smallest words (in many cases, particles) that make your Japanese sound better or worse. It's rarely the big words.

I did this once before i was corrected by a friend on skype, so i think it was lucky that i made that kind of mistake so early on, although i don't really understand any grammar i've just gotten into the habit of using it.

Anyway, once again, ありがとう

[chryuop]

I admit that I like Nagoyankeeさん's answer much more I had been trying to understand the difference for a long time and couldn't figure it out. The only thing I knew for sure was that こと cannot be used after the verb いる, but in that case you have to use の.
The way my grammar book expalins it is kinda messy...

"ことand の differ in that こと generally refers to the abstract idea of factual knowledge, whereas の concerns the working of one's feelings."
And then provides 2 exemples that should have a different meaning, I just can't see why LOL.
この映画を見たことを忘れていました　I had forgotten I had seen this movie.
この映画を見たのを忘れました　I forgot to watch that movie.

LOL good luck with the understanding of this one. As I said I like much more Nagoyankeeさん "grammar" much more

[Nagoyankee]

Originally Posted by chryuop

The only thing I knew for sure was that こと cannot be used after the verb いる, but in that case you have to use の.

Who taught you that? Your book? We use いること all the time!

「チャイナタウンにいると自分がアメリカにいることを忘れてしまう。」
When I'm in Chinatown, I kinda forget that I'm in America.

「こどものそばにいることは親にとって大切なことだよ。」
Staying by your child is an important thing as a parent.

Originally Posted by chryuop

And then provides 2 exemples that should have a different meaning, I just can't see why LOL.
この映画を見たことを忘れていました　I had forgotten I had seen this movie.
この映画を見たのを忘れました　I forgot to watch that movie.

Throw that book out the window. Those two Japanese sentences mean the same thing. They both mean "I forgot the fact that I had seen this movie before."

For the second sentence to mean "I forgot to watch that movie.", you will need to change 見た　to 見る.

[chryuop]

As I said...I like you better

[Lucas89]

This is why don't normally read up on grammar specifically and just get a general overview and build up understanding through reading, or in this instance just asking about it, because more often than not it just confuses me and alot of the time really makes no difference :P

That explanation from your book is the kind of explanation i just stop reading half way through lol, just because i stop and think, "Hey, if i didn't need explanations like this as a kid to understand english then i don't need explanations like this to learn japanese"

[berrypie]

I was planning to ask this after my examination, but I am glad that someone ask about it now!

To my understanding, を should be used after a noun (i.e. Noun を Verb)。So if I wanna use a Verb + を、I should make it in a "Noun Form"。That is, Verb + のを + Verb Or Verb + ことを + Verb。Is that true? (It sounds like Verb + to + Verb in English: I want to watch / I forget to buy...)

Speaking of の、I also see something like ので、のは、and には as conjunctions. How should I use them?

Here is one of the examples I saw from web:

光の速さを超えるのは、不可能だと思われる。
Exceeding the speed of light is thought to be impossible.

超える is a verb、in order to join with 不可能だと思われる, it needs to be in noun form so that it becomes "The fact that exceeding the speed of light"

One more question... I don't quite understand the だと in here. (I know that when you want to write something like I want/I said, you should write と + 思います or 言ます)

[Nagoyankee]

Originally Posted by berrypie

To my understanding, を should be used after a noun (i.e. Noun を Verb)。So if I wanna use a Verb + を、I should make it in a "Noun Form"。That is, Verb + のを + Verb Or Verb + ことを + Verb。Is that true? (It sounds like Verb + to + Verb in English: I want to watch / I forget to buy...)

Speaking of の、I also see something like ので、のは、and には as conjunctions. How should I use them?

Here is one of the examples I saw from web:

光の速さを超えるのは、不可能だと思われる。
Exceeding the speed of light is thought to be impossible.

超える is a verb、in order to join with 不可能だと思われる, it needs to be in noun form so that it becomes "The fact that exceeding the speed of light"

One more question... I don't quite understand the だと in here. (I know that when you want to write something like I want/I said, you should write と + 思います or 言ます)

Yes, you seem to have a good understanding of the verb nominalization. Verb nominalization is not only useful but is also essential in saying things in a natural way.

You said that ので, のは and　には are conjugations. But only ので is a conjugatioon. のは consists of two words, with　の being the verb nominalizer followed by は, the subject marker. には is a location marking particle.

That sample sentence with のは is a good one. The verb 超える gets nicely nominalized by adding の. Because it's now a noun, it can be used as the subject of this sentence by adding the subject marker は.　

～～ので means "because ~~", "since ~~".

「すしは高いので毎日食べられない。」　Because sushi is expensive, I can't eat it everyday.

「あたまがいたいので今日は家にいます。」　Since I have a headache, I'm staying home today.

～～には means "at ~~", "in ~~".

「日本には山がたくさんあります。」 There are many mountains in Japan.

A well-known tongue twister goes,
「庭には２羽にわとりがいる」　There are two chickens in the garden. This sentence is read "Niwa niwa niwa niwatori ga iru." 'Niwa' four times and still a correct and natural sentence.

Your last question, だと. Try to learn だと and　と in a pair. It's not too difficult.

だと follows nouns and pronouns and words like そう and こう.

と follows verbs and adjectives and quoted sentenses.

「あの人はイギリス人だと思う。」 I think that guy is an Englishman.
「一番かわいいのは私だと思う。」 I think the cutest one is me.
「そうだと思います。」 I think so.

「ジョンは来ると思う。」 I think John will come.
「このテレビは安いと思う。」 I think this TV set is cheap.
「田中さんは、『ナゴヤンキーは最低な男だ。』と言った。」 Mr. Tanaka said, "Nagoyankee is the worst guy."
__________________________________________

庭（にわ）= garden.　羽（わ）= counter for birds.　一番（いちばん）= best, first.　安（やす）い= cheap, inexpensive.　最低（さいてい）な= worst

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Nagoyankee

Who taught you that? Your book? We use いること all the time!

Is it possible that chryuop is just confusing two grammatical uses of こと? You can use it (obviously) in many ways, but two major functions are nominalization and also as the word "thing." For example, you correctly can pair いる and こと as you pointed out well, Nagoyankee.

However, when using it to mean "thing" (e.g., "the thing that exists"), I don't think you can use いること. Simply put, こと here implies an inanimate object, while いる implies animatedness. もの or の might be better, right?

So, to summarize, am I correct in saying that いること is acceptable for nominalization for grammatical purposes, but いること is unacceptable when talking about "the thing that exists"? By that, I mean something like 鳴いていること is wrong when you're talking about an animal. The こと there implies that the thing crying/tweeting is inanimate (like a robot or something).

Obviously, I could be wrong. We're venturing into grammatical territory I take for granted in my mind now and cannot actually explain. But I do recall instances where いること is expressly forbidden by Japanese grammar. Similar to how いることは箱だ is (generally) forbidden grammatically, because a 箱 doesn't いる, it あるs.