Reading RTK, a quick question. :)

[jacobf]

Originally Posted by Lucas89

So anyway, the point in my post is just to check that you aren't trying to learn his keywords as the actual meaning of the kanji, since most of them aren't anywhere close to the proper meanings anyway, and to let you know that a lot of the first part of the book contains a lot of kanji that aren't used very often or not at all from what i've seen.

Thanks for the response and I'm glad to hear of others' success with this. I am using the mnemonics that he provides to help me with remembering them, but I am using Wakan as a supplement to get the readings, definition, example sentences, etc. I made some flash cards last night before going to bed, and in the morning, I was able to remember what all 25 of them were using his methods (which I think is amazing). So, I am using his methods for memorizing stroke orders and his fun stories about them to help me retain them in my memory.

Thanks for all of the replies, and I hope I can continue to benefit from RTK!

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by LorenPaul

Heisig is the equivalent of turning yourself into a native chinese and learning japanese

That's taking it a bit too far. Native Chinese has the following advantages over Heisig:

- Vast vocabulary of Kanji compounds and ideas which are common between Chinese/Korean/Japanese.
- Ability to identify Sino-Japanese words from native Japanese words
- Ability to identify which compound words uses Onyomi and which uses Kunyomi (basically any compounds that makes sense in Chinese takes Onyomi, and anything looks completely random uses Kunyomi)
- Ability to remember Onyomi effortlessly due to patterns between native Chinese Pinyin and Onyomi. (i.e. anything starts with J in Pinyin starts with K in Japanese, anything ends with N in Pinyin also ends with N in Japanese etc.)

[jacobf]

I can't believe how controversial RTK is. Here is what people need to know before trying this method.

1. It's primary goal is not to teach you the reading, or the meaning for the most part. It is to allow you to distinguish between kanji and memorize them efficiently.
2. If you want a full understanding of the language, you NEED a supplement, I use Wakan and look up the kanji in it, then write down the onyomi, kunyomi, and definitions. I also jot down example sentences.
3. Don't use this book alone to learn the language, you will need other books with grammar rules and other kanji books as well.

It is a very good book to start you off, as it provides you with great building blocks and a good understanding of how kanji came to be and works, but I recommend supplements for anyone who uses it.

[darksyndrem]

Originally Posted by jacobf

I can't believe how controversial RTK is. Here is what people need to know before trying this method.

1. It's primary goal is not to teach you the reading, or the meaning for the most part. It is to allow you to distinguish between kanji and memorize them efficiently.
2. If you want a full understanding of the language, you NEED a supplement, I use Wakan and look up the kanji in it, then write down the onyomi, kunyomi, and definitions. I also jot down example sentences.
3. Don't use this book alone to learn the language, you will need other books with grammar rules and other kanji books as well.

It is a very good book to start you off, as it provides you with great building blocks and a good understanding of how kanji came to be and works, but I recommend supplements for anyone who uses it.

I see what you're saying here but in the book Heisig actually says that using other books to learn kanji will only mess up Heisig's method? I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just throwing this out there because I'm kind of confused by it.

[jacobf]

Originally Posted by darksyndrem

I see what you're saying here but in the book Heisig actually says that using other books to learn kanji will only mess up Heisig's method? I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just throwing this out there because I'm kind of confused by it.

I have not had ANY problem at all using Wakan to help me. Using other books may make you take a different path, but while following the order of his kanji, and just using supplements to aid in the reading, definitions, and example sentences I am finding it to work amazingly.

[darksyndrem]

Ok, that makes sense, I think what Heisig was talking about was using supplements to help learn the stroke order and the basic Kanji before others.

[LorenPaul]

Originally Posted by kirakira

That's taking it a bit too far. Native Chinese has the following advantages over Heisig:

- Vast vocabulary of Kanji compounds and ideas which are common between Chinese/Korean/Japanese.
- Ability to identify Sino-Japanese words from native Japanese words
- Ability to identify which compound words uses Onyomi and which uses Kunyomi (basically any compounds that makes sense in Chinese takes Onyomi, and anything looks completely random uses Kunyomi)
- Ability to remember Onyomi effortlessly due to patterns between native Chinese Pinyin and Onyomi. (i.e. anything starts with J in Pinyin starts with K in Japanese, anything ends with N in Pinyin also ends with N in Japanese etc.)

and tap their head whilst rubbing their belly at the same time too?

jesus man... lighten up!

[jesselt]

I'm pretty sure that Kirakira and I both understand the whole point of RTK, but some of the claims that are being made don't make sense...

Originally Posted by LorenPaul

well.. when you were 4... you could say "radio" but you couldn't write it..

i'm just doing it in reverse. i'm learning to write the symbol for radio and then learning the word.

Not exactly... When i was 4 I could say "radio", but I could also understand what I was saying. What you are doing is like learning how to recognize a picture of a radio, but having no idea how to actually say the word for it. Again, I understand that RTK isn't supposed to teach you how to say the word for it, but it just seems sort of counterproductive to spend that much time learning how to read Kanji in English, especially when it becomes completely useless in many compounds. As I posted before, just because you can understand the English equivalent for 新 and 聞 doesn't help you read 新聞 at all unless you want to understand it as "new listen" or "new understand" or something equally useless.

I question the entire method of AJATT + RTK when the entire point of AJATT is supposedly about learning Japanese just as a child would through immersion, when children certainly don't process new information in any way comparable to RTK. Children don't translate Kanji in their heads when they see them any more than we translate English words into Kanji to process them, and children usually don't come up with cleaver stories in order to tell Kanji apart - they just rely on the fact that 犬 and 大 are not the same despite the fact that they look similar.

I think that if RTK works for you then that's great and you should continue that method, but there's no reason to think that it is clearly superior to the "useless" textbooks and language classes, regardless of what AJATT tells you. Different people learn things differently, and I can promise you that I will never look back and regret not using RTK to increase my learning speed by 500% or whatever garbage number you want to throw out.

[kirakira]

Originally Posted by jesselt

Again, I understand that RTK isn't supposed to teach you how to say the word for it, but it just seems sort of counterproductive to spend that much time learning how to read Kanji in English, especially when it becomes completely useless in many compounds. As I posted before, just because you can understand the English equivalent for 新 and 聞 doesn't help you read 新聞 at all unless you want to understand it as "new listen" or "new understand" or something equally useless.

Well the way natives learn Japanese as babies, their parents would point to something, like, newspaper and say thats しんぶん. It's not until MUCH later in their lives that they learn how to write 新聞. The RTK thing is the complete opposite. You learn Kanji, with no context whatsoever, no reading, nothing, just pictures... ??? ... profit!!... 500% speed up. I have no idea.

To RTK's credit, the way native Japanese processes new Kanji is similar to RTK's method where complex Kanji is pieced together from common body parts. So when a native sees the Kanji 語 and want to remember it, it would be 言＋五 with 口 down the bottom.　望 would be 亡＋月 with 王 down the bottom etc. Although the description in RTK is VERY imaginative indeed.

Anyway as I said, I don't think RTK is a bad thing as long as you used it with other books that teaches you compound and reading. You can't only rely on RTK (although in the book, they tell you the exact opposite which is where all the contraversy lies).

[chryuop]

Wooo wooo woooo, slow down every one. That the method is good or not I don't know. That what I am doing is useless or not, I am not sure...I like it and I do it. But I would like to mark a couple of points here:

1: who the heck keeps talking about Japanese kids? Guys realize something, a 4 year old kid speaks Japanese 100 times better that than the average student in this forum. I live in the USA and my daughter has 100% full immersion of English and her English is better than mine. I am also trying to teach her my native language (Italian), but I would never compare her to an Italian kid of same age because they are 2 completely different things. Do not compare how Japanese kids learn kanji and how you learn kanji because you are 2 completely different things...not to mention that a kid doesn't know any other language so doesn't have to go through what it is normal for us: translating!

2: who said one way of learning kanji is the only thing people do? You keep talking about 新聞 and how you know what it is by just knowing the readings. I am not sure how you study/studied Japanese, but I doubt you went on the dictionary and started looking up compound in order to learn them by heart. I, and I am sure other students in here too, study grammar, do exercises and read books. We do come across compound kanji just like you do. The difference is that when it is a new compound I go straight to the dictionary and look it up without having to go and look up the single kanji first. Moreover... 彼は魚の骨が咽に刺さった...五時に私を呼びに来て下さ い, there are many phrases that don't use compounds.