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03-31-2009, 01:47 AM

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Originally Posted by LuckyLuck View Post
Because it's someones idea transitioned into a product. People worked hard and spent money so that others who wanted to learn second languages could do so in a more efficient manner. Surprisingly enough those same entrepreneurs needed money to make a living, which is why they charged you to buy it. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech, at all.
Yeah, and the outcome of this is FAIL like "Remembering the Kanji"

Even though that is a book....

but still. Same thing lol


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03-31-2009, 01:48 AM

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Originally Posted by alanX View Post
Yeah, and the outcome of this is FAIL like "Remembering the Kanji"
I don't consider Remembering the Kanji to be fail. In fact, I have had extremely promising results with it. Regardless, it can't be used alone, it needs supplements, but it is extremely helpful for remembering and distinguishing characters.
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03-31-2009, 01:53 AM

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Originally Posted by jacobf View Post
I don't consider Remembering the Kanji to be fail. In fact, I have had extremely promising results with it. Regardless, it can't be used alone, it needs supplements, but it is extremely helpful for remembering and distinguishing characters.
THis is from another thread

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Originally Posted by kirakira View Post
If I'm not wrong, RTK is that Remember the Kanji... that book is bloody useless hence why they are teaching you useless characters.

朋 is the alternative character of 友, both read とも. Again hardly ever used. It is derived from
朋友(ほうゆう)meaning friend, but it is almost never used in modern Japanese.

My biggest gripe with Remember the Kanji is the way Heisig describe the characters, is complete non-sense. I think 漢字源 is a MUCH MUCH better resource.


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03-31-2009, 01:55 AM

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Originally Posted by alanX View Post
Yeah, and the outcome of this is FAIL like "Remembering the Kanji"

Even though that is a book....

but still. Same thing lol
Not really. You can't drive a car and study a book.
However, you can pop in a language CD.


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03-31-2009, 01:57 AM

Ok , well this is going no where. Fast. Which should I learn first. Hirigana or Katakana


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03-31-2009, 02:13 AM

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Originally Posted by BakaCrisis View Post
THis is from another thread
What kirakira said just shows some ignorance to his method. He shows you those kanji because they are building blocks for other, more commonly used kanji, which allows you to fully understand it better.

As for katakana vs. hiragana. Whichever one you wanted. I started with hiragana and am struggling to learn katakana, which makes me think I should have started with katakana.
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03-31-2009, 02:19 AM

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Originally Posted by BakaCrisis View Post
Ok , well this is going no where. Fast. Which should I learn first. Hirigana or Katakana
Hiragana, hands down.

then katakana, then the dreadded kanji.


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03-31-2009, 02:39 AM

I`ll jump in to try and help get this back on track.

The biggest problem you`re going to have with looking things up from manga is that at early levels of Japanese it is going to be very hard for you to tell where a word begins and ends - and to tell what part is modifying it (and how it is modified). You will likely be able to figure out the very basic gist of it, but not a lot more. I don`t believe it will really help you learn anything unless you have a good basic background to link something to. But if you do, reading (be it manga or books) is an excellent way to improve vocabulary and learn new patterns...
The thing is, you just have to get to the level where you can recognize a new pattern when you see one first.

I too agree that language acquisition should be a natural process, much like acquiring your first. However, in order for that to happen - you will need to be in a 24/7 environment with that language lacking access to things in your native language... And you will need interactive guidance. Children acquiring their first language who are never spoken to do not acquire functional language skills - just like you won`t if you don`t have some interaction. In a normal situation this is parents, then friends.

Both of those things are hard to come by if you are not in Japan. That is where textbooks and software comes along - to try and fill the gap that is going to form no matter how hard you try if you`re not in the best environment. Is there crap (like I consider RTK) out there - yes. But there is also a lot of decent stuff which will at the very LEAST help get you to the point that allows you to make the best of the native resources available to you. Infants and toddlers don`t learn the beginnings of language from adult level conversation - they learn it from repetition of simple baby level words, then later simple conversation from a parent. At the very least, you can use a book to fill in that section so that you can begin to parse more difficult stuff.


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03-31-2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyororin View Post
I`ll jump in to try and help get this back on track.

The biggest problem you`re going to have with looking things up from manga is that at early levels of Japanese it is going to be very hard for you to tell where a word begins and ends - and to tell what part is modifying it (and how it is modified). You will likely be able to figure out the very basic gist of it, but not a lot more. I don`t believe it will really help you learn anything unless you have a good basic background to link something to. But if you do, reading (be it manga or books) is an excellent way to improve vocabulary and learn new patterns...
The thing is, you just have to get to the level where you can recognize a new pattern when you see one first.

I too agree that language acquisition should be a natural process, much like acquiring your first. However, in order for that to happen - you will need to be in a 24/7 environment with that language lacking access to things in your native language... And you will need interactive guidance. Children acquiring their first language who are never spoken to do not acquire functional language skills - just like you won`t if you don`t have some interaction. In a normal situation this is parents, then friends.

Both of those things are hard to come by if you are not in Japan. That is where textbooks and software comes along - to try and fill the gap that is going to form no matter how hard you try if you`re not in the best environment. Is there crap (like I consider RTK) out there - yes. But there is also a lot of decent stuff which will at the very LEAST help get you to the point that allows you to make the best of the native resources available to you. Infants and toddlers don`t learn the beginnings of language from adult level conversation - they learn it from repetition of simple baby level words, then later simple conversation from a parent. At the very least, you can use a book to fill in that section so that you can begin to parse more difficult stuff.
Thank you so much for putting the time out to respond to my thread.

I appreciate this deeply and will take this into consideration.


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03-31-2009, 04:19 AM

If you've not even begun learning Japanese (as I've gathered from your asking whether to learn hiragana or katakana first), manga is going to be too difficult. But I would say at least pick up Doraemon or some other children's manga and see what you can make of it.

Also, let it be known that the people who denounce textbooks are often the same people who lack the discipline to actually learn from one. Immersion is key to learning languages, but it has to be supplemented with proper guidance - from a textbook or a tutor or a university class. Self-study with Japanese is very difficult, but you if you buy a proper book (such as Genki), you can at least get a grasp on some basics.


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