What's the best way to learn Japanese?

[Iffy]

Hello all. Brand new here. Haven't even looked around yet, but I will over the next couple of days. I have a pressing question, and I'd like to get it out of the way ASAP.

I took some Japanese in junior and senior year in high school, and I'm currently studying second-year Japanese in community college. I hope to transfer to the university in a year or two, but if it takes me two years to get there (which is likely), I will probably have to wait a whole year before I can take third year, since the university offers it, but my community college doesn't. After I'm done with second year here, I'll be all by myself for a year. I'm already worrying about that.

What I would love to know is: what's the best way to study/learn/practice Japanese if you're not taking any classes?

1. I've heard about the Heisig method (I've already bought the book and looked it over), where you're supposed to learn the kanji first, then learn vocab through kanji, and focus on learning to read first before you worry about conversation. Now, I've learned a little conversation in my first year, but I still can't really talk about anything unless the conversation exactly follows the textbook, so this is already playing to my weaknesses. I've been studying some extra kanji in my free time (I've learned about 300, while my classmates have learned maybe 120 by now), but it's rather dry and difficult to study just kanji alone. The Heisig method requires that you learn all 2000 Kyoiku and Joyo kanji BEFORE you do anything else. That seems REALLY tough, but I've read all about it on AJATT (Khatzimoto makes a really convincing argument, but he also seems REALLY hardcore about it).

2. The classes that I'm taking right now are just like my high school classes: they teach us a little bit of everything: probably about 200-300 new kanji this year, some basic vocab on various topics, such as traveling to Japan. I've heard this is not the best method to learn, however, since the stuff you're taught is academic, and not "real" Japanese. The amount of stuff we learn seems kinda light. I can (and already do) learn more than this, but anything else I learn is totally independent, meaning I don't know if what I learn is actually useful, and it takes a lot of memorization just to remember the stuff I learn, even though I can't use most of it in my classes.

3. I've heard since the beginning that it's important to learn to speak with Japanese people themselves, to learn to speak as they speak. However, I don't know any Japanese people (if there are any near where I live, I don't know where to find them or how to talk to them, since I still can't speak Japanese and I'm afraid to approach random people and try to talk with them in a language I still don't know well), so I don't know how to practice "real" Japanese.

This is a really rambling post, I know, but I don't know how else to start off here. I have so many questions, and I feel so overwhelmed. I'm doing OK in my classes, but I know that if I want to learn Japanese (like really learn, and I really, REALLY do), I have to learn on my own as well. What I need to know is: what's the best way to learn on my own? Learn the kanji first, and focus on learning how to read? Try to find Japanese people and talk to them, even if I don't know how (and even if they think I'm some crazy girl )? Or just stick with the classes? I'd like to start this independent study on my own, before this school year is over.

Please help me. I so want to learn, but I've very confused about what's the best way to do so. I've heard of so many methods, and none of them seem to work with any other. I would appreciate any advice you could give me. If you've learned Japanese through self-study, your advice would be doubly appreciated.

[jesselt]

In regards to your first couple of questions:

Heisig's method works for a lot of people. That being said, I think most serious learners and academic institutions regard it as crap. After you have finished learning all the meanings of the Kanji you have to relearn the readings, not to mention that the meaning of the kanji by itself may have little or nothing to do with any kanji compound that it appears in. Seems like a two steps forward one step back method to me personally. I don't hold AJATT in any higher regard either. At best, AJATT is extremely impractical for people who don't live in caves if you follow it the way the author intends. Throw away everything in my house that is in English and purchase all new Japanese items? No thanks. Further more, AJATT doesn't actually explain how to learn Japanese but opts instead to just repeatedly tell you to completely immerse yourself in a Japanese only environment + ??? = Magical Japanese knowledge. Some things he says are true and practical, but you should take everything with a grain of salt.

Secondly, if your goal is to actually learn Japanese, then there is nothing wrong with learning the formal text book language. A serious learner will want to fully understand the language and that begins with learning the basics. My teacher once told us of a girl who had lived in Japan for a couple of years but didn't learn any Japanese before going. When she came back she could speak and understand the casual Japanese that she spoke with her friends. She had no real knowledge of formal or even semi-formal language. Her goal was to get a real job in Japan. Welcome to starting all over again; you can't reply with うん when asked a question by your interviewer or boss.

Finally, if you don't have any Japanese people to speak with (like me) I would suggest just doing things like watching Youtube videos, movies, etc. in Japanese. Things like interviews or the news are great (more realistic than anime for example)

That was a lot longer than I had anticipated.

[Iffy]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I still have a ton of questions, but I suppose I could save the rest for tomorrow. Or...maybe just now.

So...you think the Heisig method is not so good? I was wondering if it was possible to somehow combine Heisig with my classes, even though AJATT took the rather extreme line "no classes ever, classes suck". Since I've already been taking classes and learning basic vocab "kanji first, sentences later" and basic grammar "never learn grammar, ever", I've been skeptical of AJATT/Heisig from the start, even though I loved the (severe) simplicity of its method.

At the same time, however, I've noticed some failings in how I've been learning in my classes, and AJATT has agreed with me. In a typical 50-minute class, we spend maybe 10-15 minutes listening to the instructor (who is a native-born Japanese woman, BTW) speaking Japanese to us, and maybe another 10-15 doing group work, most of which is slow and confused, as few of us feel comfortable enough with the material (we're still learning it as we go, and if even one of us doesn't get it, it slows us all down), so in a typical day, we spend no more than a few minutes actually speaking or writing the language, and the rest of the time we just sit and listen, while I understand maybe half of what the teacher says. When AJATT says that classes suck, I can see where they're coming from. However, I don't know of any better method to learn other than to keep up with my classwork and sneak in a little extra kanji on the side.

If you don't think Heisig is so hot, then how do you suggest I approach independent study? I've listened to Japanese music videos, watched some anime non-subbed, non-dubbed and tried to pick up what I can (AJATT recommends exact subbing series, which sounds very smart, but that would cost me $200 to buy a series that way and I'm still looking for my first college job), and after a couple of months of that, I still feel confused. I'm slowly learning the kanji and learning more in my classes, but listening to the language and understanding it is still very difficult. I've started reading manga in Japanese, but I have to look up at least one kanji in every other word. I even tried reading a Harry Potter book in Japanese last month, and even that was far too difficult; it wasn't the kind of kid's book I was expecting. I guess I need more kanji/reading practice.

I really want to learn the language as quickly as I can, but it's very frustrating. It all boils down to endless repetition of vocab/kanji. My SRS - Anki - helps with that a bit (it's SUCH an improvement on the flash cards I used in high school), but it's...well...still not that fun. And, to once again echo AJAAT (can you tell I've been following it for a while?), if it isn't fun, it doesn't seem worth the stress. At least if there's some other way.

So is there? Is there some way I can watch Japanese TV shows from home (I'm in the US, BTW)? Is there a really fun and effective way to watch Japanese TV shows and still learn something? Is there anything I can do to spice up my current routine of 2-4 hours of Anki everyday, plus my Japanese coursework? I'm not expecting language learning to be easy, but if there's any way to make it easier, I would dearly love to know. I don't want to burn out, and I really don't want to learn to hate language study.

[jesselt]

The whole thing with classes is that you need to practice outside of class. You will never learn anything without outside practice. Think of your classes as a quick introduction to certain grammar structures and a good time to ask questions about things that have been confusing you. Learning Japanese without classes is a huge and daunting task - so much so that it is hard to find people who know the language but never took classes (not counting people that moved to Japan.)

I would recommend just sticking with your classes and maybe using Tae Kim's Japanese guide to Japanese grammar outside of class. I also make Kanji lists whenever I learn a new Kanji; I just look up words that start or include that Kanji in them and make a big list of words with their readings and meanings. This helps introduce new vocabulary and helps teach the different readings of Kanji. Kanji readings are too hard to just look at 上 and go うえ,かみ,じょ,うわ, etc. (especially when the readings are meaningless unless placed in context)
　
I do not recommend watching Anime as a means to learning Japanese any more than I would recommend Spongebob to someone learning English. Stick to things like the news or other television shows that you can find on Youtube or other video streaming sites. You can also buy books in Japanese that teach Japanese grammar/Kanji. I have one that teaches the difference between Kanji that have the same meaning or reading but are used in different circumstances - the entire thing is in Japanese.

I'm sure someone will soon post about their wonderful success story of learning Japanese by using Heisig, watching Anime, and never attending classes, but I think my views are shared among most people regarding those subjects.

[Iffy]

I'm heading off to bed now, but just so I have some way to compare our experiences: How did you learn Japanese, how long did it take you, and how well do you know it now? Did you take four years of classes? How long did it take you to be able to converse in Japanese, at least on a basic level? Is this something that is likely to take six or more years, or is this something I can learn fairly fluently by the time I graduate from school (assuming I put in the extra out-of-class study/practice)?

[jesselt]

I do not speak Japanese. Unlike some people on this forum I will not pretend otherwise. I am learning the language. It is difficult to say how much I know. Some people might say after a year or two of study that they only know as much as a 1st grader. HA! First graders can speak fluent Japanese just as a first grader in America can speak fluent English. There may be a lot of mistakes, but they have more knowledge of speech patterns than you will after you are finished with school.

I can probably have a basic conversation with a Japanese person if they were to use standard Japanese (basic as in simple discussion of the weather or discussion of school, etc.) and I've been studying for about two years. Learning to fluency will take you many, many years of study unless you plan on moving to Japan for an extended period of time. How long exactly depends on each person.

[korriken]

Lots of patience, lots of practice, a little luck and resisting the urge to slam your face on the nearest hard surface.

sounds like you have the same problem I do, no one to practice with. I've been educating myself for about 3 months now, and all i know is a little basic grammar, about 85 or so Kanji and I don't even know how many words I can recognize without having to hear it several times.

I think my main problem is lack of Kanji, which is leading to a lack of confidence.

Is this a common problem with beginners?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Iffy

I'm heading off to bed now, but just so I have some way to compare our experiences: How did you learn Japanese, how long did it take you, and how well do you know it now? Did you take four years of classes? How long did it take you to be able to converse in Japanese, at least on a basic level? Is this something that is likely to take six or more years, or is this something I can learn fairly fluently by the time I graduate from school (assuming I put in the extra out-of-class study/practice)?

I speak Japanese, but not at a native level. I studied on my own off and on through junior high and high school, but this is negligible. In fact, it is so negligible in its effects that I completely forgot that I studied on my own in junior high until a friend from that time brought it up in a conversation recently!

When I got to university, I took one class each semester for two years. The class was about 5–6 hours per week of class time. I also attended a Japanese conversation club for about 4 hours per week, where I chatted with native speakers.

I moved to Japan and lived there a year while studying at a university there.

I moved back to the US and continued one more year of classes before I graduated. My studies have been very infrequent since then, and my ability to speak has dropped a bit in the past three years. However, I'm working on improving my vocabulary and reading ability to compensate until I find the time again to meet with natives (maybe I'll have to move to a new city to do so; I don't exactly live near Little Tokyo right now).

[ozkai]

Live in Japan and listen-listen listen-talk-talk-talk

[Yuusuke]