some questions on numbers and particles
 

are thin books usually counted with さつ or まい?
and also regarding the counter for number of years, would なんねん be preferred over なんねんかん

You always ask questions using the fewest words possible, you know that? :rolleyes: And I end up writing several times longer because I have to keep asking "Do you mean to ask ~~~?"

How thin are you referring to? When it's hard to picture that thin book in my head, it's hard to answer.

If it has more than 10-20 pages, it's often counted with さつ.　But some people would consider it not thick enough to use さつ and would rather use ぶ（部）. Officially, 部 will always be correct regardless of the book's size while some people will hesitate to use さつ when the book is "thin".

If it's just a folded piece of paper, use まい. Even then, 部 is still correct and "more official".

Note that 部 can only be used when talking about copies of the same book or brochure.

EDIT: Forgot to answer your last question.

なんねん and なんねんかん are grammatically interchangeable, with the latter sounding more "formal".

ops sry i didn't realise that, i would try to phrase the question more clearly next time.

also what does it mean that 部 can only be used when talking about copies of the same book or brochure


regarding なんねんかん, is it true that in casual speech (friend to friend) i would be using なんねん instead of なんねんかん?

Suppose there are 20 books here. They are all different books. They may be the books that you actually read last year. This is definitely counted as 20さつ.

You see 20 copies of the same book stacked up in the bookstore. That is 20部. Call that 20さつ and you will sound either like a kid or kinda uneducated.

Well, I would say that was generally true. Real truth is there are always exeptions. なんねんかん is not all that formal, which is why I put the word in parentheses in my first post.

A question from me: Would kanji be a taboo in my replies? I feel like a dribbling kid writing なんねん or なんねんかん in kana.

heys thanks for the information. to clarify, if in the photocopy machine there are 500 sheets of blank papers, i would use 部 instead of まい right?

anyway would 20部 be pronounced as にじゅっぷ?

also about the number 1000, is it pronounced as せん or いっせん


ps kanji would be ok i'l check it up online for its pronunciation

No. That's 枚（まい）.

To call a sheet of paper 部, things must be printed on it.

I'm gald you asked. It's にじゅうぶ .

Over 99% of the time, it's せん. When you really must emphasize the number, it's pronounced いっせん.

Splended. I'll just use the easy ones for now.

ok cool, what software do you use to type japanese anyway?

==
Is it because that 部 is a special case that we use にじゅうぶ instead of にじゅっぷ?

for 1-100,000 部 are these correct:

いちぶん
にぶん
さんぶん
よんぶん
ごぶん
ろくぶん
ななぶん
はちぶん
きゅうぶん
じゅうぶん
ひゃくぶん
せんぶん
いちまんぶん



-- i've just read a short explanation on when to use いっせん/せん, to clarify, would 10,001,000 be いっせんまんいっせん

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that counters that are already voiced (ぶ　vs ふ) don't have change pronunciation at all when reading. So 部 will always be read as ぶ and never as っぷ. This sound change does happen with counters that have unvoiced consonants like 分（ふん）(minutes)　匹（ひき）(small animals)
二十分（にじゅっぷん）
一匹（いっぴき）
etc.

Windows? I don't even know. You can type in Japanese on all the PC's sold in Japan, so I never even thought about it. Maybe someone else can answer this.

No, you're going too wild. It's very common to read the "20" part of "20 + counter" にじゅう. Number 20 is pronounced にじゅう, too.

for 1-100,000 部 are these correct:

いちぶん Why are you suddenly reading it ぶん? :confused: It's ぶ.
にぶん
さんぶん
よんぶん
ごぶん
ろくぶん
ななぶん
はちぶん
きゅうぶん
じゅうぶん
ひゃくぶん
せんぶん
いちまんぶん All correct if you delete all the ん's. (Nicer than saying "all wrong", ain't it?)

Correct. Nice example.

千 is the biggest numeral where this is still possible, right? Starting with 万, it always must be preceded by a number, right? 一万、一億, etc, right? Like 1200 is 千二百, but 12000 is 一万二千.

lol i don't know why i read it as ぶん just now, i guess i'd got mixed up


anyway i've got another question on particles. i've learnt that ちちもははもせんせいです means both my mum and dad are teachers my question is this: is it possible to chain も particles in this sense:
both my mum and dad are teachers too! [as a reply] --> ちちもははももせんせいです

also if 写真をとってもいいですか means may i take pictures, can we chain the も particles in this sense may i take pictures too becomes 写真をとってももいいですか

You already chained them together in the first. Your second has one too many もs. Your second sentence is grammatically wrong.

No. Stop trying to add more もs than necessary!

In this sentence, the "too" refers to "I" not "to take pictures." Thus, if you really wanted to say "May I take pictures, too?" what you're actually saying is "May I [in addition to the other person who already has permission] take pictures?"

私も写真をとってもいいですか。

Do you understand? English lets "too/also" get ambiguous as to what it is modifying much more easily than Japanese does.

Your first step is to determine "what is the "too" referring to here?" Then apply も (or something else) to the correct part.

A great illustrative example:
May I throw a ball, too?
Does the "too" mean "may I throw [say, a rock] and also throw a ball" or "may I throw a ball in addition to PERSON, who is also throwing a ball"?

If the first,
[私は]ボールも投げてもいいですか。
If the second,
私もボールを投げてもいいですか。

Do you understand the difference now?

Edit I've been watching you for a while, and I think one of your biggest obstacles right now is your tendency to try and translate every word in your English sentence into Japanese and then mash them together. You cannot do this.

I have never seen 兆 use anything, but then again I have never seen or heard 兆 used in an actual sentence.

sry i still have a bit of problem with the も particle, e.g i had this conversation:

Ash: my mother and father are both teachers --> ちちもははもせんせいです
Bruce: my mother and father are both teachers too! --> ?

They use it all the time on the news and in the newspaper... And in my memory it is also always preceded by a number. 一兆円 for example.

The same thing is sufficient, although a native could probably tell you something with a bit better nuance than I.

I think I'd instinctively say ぼくのりょうしんとおなじだ or ぼくのりょうしんもそうだ. (my parents are the same or my parents are like that, too) instead of trying to force a one-to-one translation of the English. But that's because I think in Japanese when speaking Japanese, so I wouldn't be trying to perfectly translate an English phrase into Japanese. "OK, how to I use that 'too' at the end???" Nope! That's not the good way to think when speaking!

ok i'l try to refrain from direct translation. thanks for the examples in the previous post.


regarding particles, i've heard that の can be an "equivalent indicator". the examples of my textbook have the right side of the の as a name.
e.g.1 わたしのいぬのチロはてりあです
e.g.2 あのほんはともだちのひろこさんにあげました

so my question is that is it required for the right side of the の to be a name, if not what else could be substituted?

It's very, very difficult to answer your question on a forum. There are so many uses for の that I don't really want to try and explain here.

Could you limit your question in some way to make it so we don't end up typing about a hundred pages of explanation?

Think of の as meaning a few different things:
1. 's (possession) 私の猫 (my cat)
2. definition 友達のほろこちゃん (my friend Hiroko)
3. emphasis or question as a sentence-ending particle ピザをたべたの？ (Did you eat pizza?)
4. nominalization たべるのが好きだ (I like eating)

There are others, but it's 6:30 am and I can't think straight.

just for the usage on 2. definition, is a name compulsory on the right side of the の like 友達のほろこちゃん

Yes, or else it wouldn't be a definition.

would something like this be considered slang but valid, or totally invalid:

ボブのばか

That isn't even slang. Everyone says it here.

To elaborate on what MMM said, you can remove the のほろこちゃん and it would still make sense. 友達の would not, however. 友達の一人 would, however.

heys thanks all for your replies.

anyway, what exactly is the difference between this 2 sentences

1) ならはきょうとよりゆうめいじゃありません

2) ならはきょうとほどゆうめいじゃありません

Meaning-wise, they are exactly the same. 2) makes the speaker sound considerably maturer.
_____

To be strict, the better speakers would rarely say じゃありません. じゃ is a colloquial word for では. By combining it with the not-so-casual ありません, you're creating an imbalance within a short phrase, which better speakers would do anything to avoid. It's one the phrases used more by Japanese-learners than by us Japanese-speakers. I recommend that you use ～～ではありません.

does using ほど makes なら sounds more famous then if i use より?
in other words if it is this case:
1. AさんはBさんよりへたですじょうずではありません
2. AさんはBさんほどへたですじょうずではありません
which should i use to "soften the blow" and not make A-san sounds too "lousy"



also regarding ほど is it true that the right side must be a negated expression so i can say ほどじょうずではありません but not ほどへたです right?

heys all i've got 2 questions regarding this sentence: にくもさかなもたべません

is the last も required, in other words can i say this: にくもさかなたべません

also can i add more terms like にくもさかなもやさいもたべません

1. You might hear people say #2, but #1 is better. #2 feels like it's missing a particle (because technically it is).

2. Yes.

Go with your instinct. We don't say #2.

Unlike は, が or を, も never gets omitted even in the sloppiest spoken Japanese. も doesn't get omitted because it has more "meaning".

thanks all for the answers =D as for the particle の, is it true that sometimes its optional. if so how do i decide whether its needed or not. will both of these be acceptable:
ワンさんというひとをしっていますか
ワンさんというのひとをしっていますか
and this 2:
ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずですね
ワンさんの日本語の能力はじょうずですね

also does this sentence requires the の particle?
これはわたしからのプレゼント

I know I'm always picking on you, but do you seriously write 日本語能力 in kanji and ひと in kana? Isn't 人 easier than any of the kanji used in 日本語能力?

ワンさんというひとをしっていますか is correct.
ワンさんというのひとをしっていますか is incorrect. One never says というの～～.　Place a noun immediately after という.

ワンさんという人 person named Wong
イギリスという国（くに） country named England
ランボーという映画（えいが）　film named Rambo
______

ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずですね
ワンさんの日本語の能力はじょうずですね

Both are incorrect because you used じょうず. You don't use じょうず to describe one's proficiency in something. Must use たかい/ひくい(high/low).

You can say ワンさんの日本語はじょうずです but not ワンさんの日本語能力はじょうずです.

ワンさんの日本語能力は高（たか）いですね is correct.
ワンさんの日本語の能力は高いですね is correct.

So, when is the の optional? Basically, that's when it's sandwiched between two on-reading words. On-reading words, of course, mean Chinese-origin words.

日本語能力 happens to be a perfect example of this. の is optional.

Other examples:
平均得点（へいきんとくてん）＝　平均の得点 = average score
数学教師（すうがくきょうし）＝　数学の教師 = math teacher
電話回線（でんわかいせん）＝　電話の回線 = telephone lines
__________

これはわたしからのプレゼント

In this phrase, the の is absolutely required.

入れる
 

ok from now i'll try to write in kanji if i can

thanks too for the information! but i've got some questions about the の particle. is it required/optional if an entire sub-sentence is used as an adjective, like in this sentence これはワンさんという人を撮ったの写真です, should i include/exclude the red "の"?

also are both of these sentences in the correct syntax, and do they mean the same thing:
写真をたくさん撮りました
たくさんの写真を撮りました

and sry for a third question, i was wondering if the に particle required when i use the verb 入れる in other words can i say this: お金を入れてください, instead of ここにお金を入れてください, if its understood (like when i'm pointing with my hands)

You will never use a "Verb + の + Noun" structure. 撮ったの人 is in that structure.

Say 「これはワンさんという人を撮った写真です。」

Both are grammatical and they mean the same thing. However, I do want to state that the former is the native speaker's choice, and the latter the Japanese learner's "choice". Native speakers prefer placing words like たくさん or 少し or number words right in front of the verb.

Native speakers say　「ハンバーガーを2こ食べた。」

Jpn-learners tend to say　「2このハンバーガーを食べた。」. This is correct but it will always sound foreign to us. Always, because we don't say it that way ourselves.

This is a ここに question, not a に question. ここに will be redundant when both the speaker and listener know exactly where to put the money.

cool i'll use the number words in front of verbs from now on. i saw this somewhere: 友達の１人が私に会いました. is this form of usage common, or should i be saying this instead: 友達が１人私に会いました

and about ここに and ここで, are both of these sentence structures correct:
ここに車を止めては行けません
ここで車を止めては行けません

also regarding the も and と particle can this 魚も野菜もたべません be said like this 魚と野菜をたべません, or does it sounds weird

Both 友達の１人が私に会いました and 友達が１人私に会いました are grmmatical but the chances are you won't ever hear us say either as long as you live. When talking about two people meeting and the speaker is one of them, the speaker wil be the subject of the sentence.

「（私は）友達の一人に会いました。」 > Usual. Use this one.
「（私は）一人の友達に会いました。」 > Sounds like a sentence in a story. "I met a certain friend." Don't use this until you're much more fluent and you know what you're saying.

Both ここに車を止めては行けません and ここで車を止めては行けません will be correct if you don't use the kanji in いけません. The sentence is about parking, not about going. Thus, no kanji.

Both 魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません are correct and they mean the same thing. Neither sounds weird. Difference is the emphasis on the dislike expressed by the two も.

Could you elaborate a bit on the difference in emphasis? This is the type of thing I (sadly) don't really have an ear for, so I have to ask specifically for the difference in emphasis when I get a chance.

Kind of like the difference between ピザを食べたい and ピザが食べたい. Just something I had to have someone explain to me.

魚も野菜もたべません and 魚と野菜をたべません both mean "(Someone) eats neither fish nor vegetables." But there is a not-so-small difference in the nuance.

Depending on the context it appears in, 魚も野菜もたべません can have a connotation that this person doesn't really like eating anything, let alone fish and vegetables that are mentioned by name. With the double も, the sentence gives off a pretty strong negativity about this person's unbalanced diet. In the extreme case where you simply refuse to eat, that's 何も食べません. That is a も again.

魚と野菜をたべません, however, just "sounds" different to the native ear. It sounds like it's saying "As for fish and vegtables, I don't care to eat much. But I sure love eating other things." It sounds a whole lot "softer" and "less negative". It's saying that there are merely two groups of food that you don't like eating.

Thanks. That was a great explanation.

thanks too for the explanation. =P


anyway i was wondering when we use から to join 2 sentences, must the sentence on the left of から be in plain form.

like is this allowed: 試験がありますからどこも行きません, or do i have to use this 試験があるからどこも行きません.
(btw is the kanji for ある, 在る or 有る?)

also when we use のに, must the sentence on the left be in plain form



regarding the particle あいだ, is it sometimes interchangeable with the ながら conjugation, will this 2 sentences be ok:
バスを待っているあいだ新聞を読みます
バスを待ちながら新聞を読みます
(can あいだ be written as 間 when its used in the sentence above?)

試験がありますからどこも行きません is ok but it's borderline. This is because から sounds too casual to go with あります and 行きません. Picky readers (as myself) would say that it would sound better if you replaced から by ので. If you MUST use から, it would sound best if you said 試験があるからどこへも行かない。

I would say yes for the same reason as above, the balance.

間　is not a particle. It's a noun.

Can't say they are interchangeable becasuae as you can see in your own sentences (which are both correct), you had to change the verb forms. Besides, ながら is a particle. You won't ever see a noun and a particle being interchangeable.

Yes, あいだ is written 間 in your sentence.

EDIT: Forgot to say that good writers do not write ある using a kanji.