Should Japan abolish kanji?

[Nyororin]

I read a LOT. In both Japanese and in English.
I cannot imagine trying to muck through kana only text... Nor can I imagine trying to muck through English devoid of spaces, capitalization, and punctuation.

justtrytorelaxandreadthroughasentencelikethiswithoutanyhintstowhereanything beginsandsendswithproperpunctuationthereisntmuchofaproblemevenwhenthelevela ndcomplexityofthesubjectmatterincreasesyesiamsurethateveryonewillbeabletore adthisjustasiamsurethatanyonecouldreadajapanesesentencewrittenonlyinkanabut itcertainlyisnteasyanditcertainlyisntsmoothgoingevenastheonewhotypedthisupr eadingoverittocheckfrotyposispainfulworkandthisisenglishjapaneselackingkanj iwouldbeevenmoreofapainasitreliesonthecharactersmuchmoretoconverymeaningeng lishiscompleteaslongasthespellingiscorrect

Yeah, lots of fun to read...

The presence of Kanji doesn`t slow down or hinder a reader - it does the opposite. Anything above picture book level is a pain to read without it. Sure, for a Japanese learner who only knows one meaning for one sound pattern it may be easy - especially with words split by spaces - but when there are many possible meanings and when you can`t be sure even where one word ends and another begins... I would HATE to read anything in all kana - let alone something with real substance.

こうかかれてるほうがよみやすいとおもってるなんて･ ･･わたしにはりかいできない。かいわじゃたしかにか んじがつかわれることはないけど、そのかわりにいろん なヒント（カタカナはまだつかってもいいよね？）があ ったり、ふめいなてんがあればすぐにきくことができる 。よんでるときはかんぜんにいっぽうてきでめのまえに かかれてるものからすべてのじょうほうをとりだすしか ない。そとからみて「めんどうくさいから」ってりゆう でどこかのげんごをかえたいなんてばかげてるとおもう 。

No fun reading that either. It was a total pain to type out, and just like with the no punctuation English it felt so strange and frustrating that I`m sure I made a number of mistakes that it is too much of a pain to read through to find.

ETA;

This makes me think of the quizzes they occasionally have on TV asking people to guess what a sentence really means... The most recent one I saw was "You get a message on your phone from a friend - what is she talking about?!"
きのうのかんそうきかして

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I read a LOT. In both Japanese and in English.
I cannot imagine trying to muck through kana only text... Nor can I imagine trying to muck through English devoid of spaces, capitalization, and punctuation.

justtrytorelaxandreadthroughasentencelikethiswithoutanyhintstowhereanything beginsandsendswithproperpunctuationthereisntmuchofaproblemevenwhenthelevela ndcomplexityofthesubjectmatterincreasesyesiamsurethateveryonewillbeabletore adthisjustasiamsurethatanyonecouldreadajapanesesentencewrittenonlyinkanabut itcertainlyisnteasyanditcertainlyisntsmoothgoingevenastheonewhotypedthisupr eadingoverittocheckfrotyposispainfulworkandthisisenglishjapaneselackingkanj iwouldbeevenmoreofapainasitreliesonthecharactersmuchmoretoconverymeaningeng lishiscompleteaslongasthespellingiscorrect

Yeah, lots of fun to read...

The presence of Kanji doesn`t slow down or hinder a reader - it does the opposite. Anything above picture book level is a pain to read without it. Sure, for a Japanese learner who only knows one meaning for one sound pattern it may be easy - especially with words split by spaces - but when there are many possible meanings and when you can`t be sure even where one word ends and another begins... I would HATE to read anything in all kana - let alone something with real substance.

こうかかれてるほうがよみやすいとおもってるなんて･ ･･わたしにはりかいできない。かいわじゃたしかにか んじがつかわれることはないけど、そのかわりにいろん なヒント（カタカナはまだつかってもいいよね？）があ ったり、ふめいなてんがあればすぐにきくことができる 。よんでるときはかんぜんにいっぽうてきでめのまえに かかれてるものからすべてのじょうほうをとりだすしか ない。そとからみて「めんどうくさいから」ってりゆう でどこかのげんごをかえたいなんてばかげてるとおもう 。

No fun reading that either. It was a total pain to type out, and just like with the no punctuation English it felt so strange and frustrating that I`m sure I made a number of mistakes that it is too much of a pain to read through to find.

I agree with you complete. But if one were to truly reform Japanese orthography, I'm sure it wouldn't be limited to just getting rid of kanji. There are a ton of ways you could make Japanese more readable (some Korean-style reform would be scientifically apt, but culturally impossible). You could put spaces between words (but you'd have to define what those are) or do something else.

Hell, you might be able to adapt hangul to Japanese. We know Hangul works.

But like has been said already
1. this is not going to happen;
2. there are advantages to kanji;
3. getting rid of kanji would be a response to economic and population trends, not to make the language easier for Japanese people

See
Basic English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Special English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
for examples of what could be done to make Japanese more accessible to immigrants (assuming Japan eventually opens up its doors to immigrants in wider numbers due to economic pressure)

Now I'm not an expert, but my understanding based on a couple semesters of Japanese sociology and demography is that there are significant population problems in Japan due to its remarkably low birthrate, and if Japanese guys and girls don't start popping them out, they're going to need a foreign source of labor to support its social programs. Perhaps take in immigrants on worker visas that are good for a decade or five years or something, but deny them social welfare program benefits, to increase what pays out to citizens without having temporary immigrants being a drain.

But I only have a semester of immigration studies under my belt, so I'm a dilettante.

[Nyororin]

The topic of immigration pops up a LOT in the Kanji discussion... But why? Is Kanji REALLY stopping people from coming to Japan? Does the difficulty of English stop people from immigrating to the US or the UK?

It`s policy, NOT language that governs this. The examples of Basic English and Simplified English are fine examples, but I don`t see them in any type of usage that would actually influence immigration. And if they are good examples of making a language more accessible - then the NHK programming for foreigners using a set of so many simple grammatical patterns and a limited vocabulary should also be considered.

The thing is, there tend to be two sets of foreigner groups in Japan. Those who want to and do learn the language, and those that don`t care to and do not. Those who don`t care to and don`t feel the desire to are not going to benefit from any immigrant aimed simplification - and those that want to and do learn the language will only get a small advantage in the very early stages of learning. Natives aren`t going to make the switch, so any desire to do business with the rest of the country will necessitate proficiency in "native Japanese".

[godwine]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

To be fair, Japan needs foreign workers to remain successful into the next century. Their population is crashing (I forget the name for this problem--人口問題 or something? maybe 高齢問題?), and they either need foreigners to support the social programs or they need women to start popping out more kids (which means serious social reforms such as cheaper education).

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that Japan is facing a population crisis. My point is that while Japan is facing a population crisis, the government's stance isn't to just open the country up to consume foreigners, that said, there is no real need to create anything to "attract" foreigners. Just remember that, when financials go under in an organizations, the foreigners are the first to go, that should be enough indication of how much the Japanese government or society "cherish" their added population by foreigners

Look at the country I live in, we are very very relax with our immigration law, in fact, Canada is known to have the most diversified culture. A lot of immigrants in this country doesn't speak a word of English at all for the same reason - its too difficult for them. We don't just go and abolish the use of English.........

[jesselt]

I don't see how abolishing Kanji would attract foreigners anyways. Either you are going to move to Japan for business opportunities and not bother to learn Japanese (which many businessmen do) or you are going to move to Japan because you enjoy the country and want to live there, in which case you will probably try and learn Japanese. I doubt anyone thinks they are going to learn Japanese and then quits because Kanji is too difficult and then decides not to move to Japan.

Sane people stop learning Japanese because particles make no sense, not Kanji.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by jesselt

I don't see how abolishing English would attract foreigners anyways. Either you are going to move to the USA for business opportunities and not bother to learn English (which many immigrants do) or you are going to move to the USA because you enjoy the country and want to live there, in which case you will probably try and learn English. I doubt anyone thinks they are going to learn English and then quits because English is too difficult and then decides not to move to the US.

You're creating a false dichotomy. I hope by switching out countries and languages you can understand that there is a third type of person you've not accounted for: laborers from poor nations. I've repeatedly said in this thread that my understanding from school is that Japan has a problem with a lack of laborers and population in general to support their economy. So it's not that Japan needs more CEOs. It's that Japan needs more laborers.

Second, no one is suggesting that people will not immigrate because they didn't learn Japanese. I'm suggesting people will not integrate if Japanese literacy is too unattainable.

And I think the difference between Muslims in France versus in the US is a good illustration of how vitally important integration is to social stability.

Again, I'm not telling Japan how to run its economy and immigration affairs. I'm playing Devil's Advocate with the little bit of demography I know.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Second, no one is suggesting that people will not immigrate because they didn't learn Japanese. I'm suggesting people will not integrate if Japanese literacy is too unattainable.

Well, whether that is true or not, I would think this would only apply to the first generation. The children of these laborers, if they stay in Japan, I imagine will not have the same issue with the language their parents might have.

[PockyMePink]

Great! Maybe next we should abolish words in the English language, and instead write them out as sounds!

Dohzthisreedwel?bet-erthuhnwurdz,uhmahyrahyt?

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by PockyMePink

Great! Maybe next we should abolish words in the English language, and instead write them out as sounds!

Dohzthisreedwel?bet-erthuhnwurdz,uhmahyrahyt?

If you think reading English is at all comparable to reading Japanese, you must be a Kanji Master Man.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by PockyMePink

Great! Maybe next we should abolish words in the English language, and instead write them out as sounds!

Dohzthisreedwel?bet-erthuhnwurdz,uhmahyrahyt?

I don't think anyone actually expects Japan to allow so many immigrants to stay and gain permanent resident status. Did you see how they recently paid Japanese citizens of Brazilian birth (IIRC) to move out of the country?

I would expect Japan to allow more laborers into the country on a temporary worker visa basis. There would be no "second generation."

But yes, if there were a second generation, then you are completely correct.