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04-03-2010, 11:45 PM
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いつも通りで、間違えてしまいました。ごめんなさい。 しかし、初めてコメントを投稿（ポースト？）した後で 、AHHさんがコメントを投稿する前に、自分のコメントを 書きなおしました。思わないでなにか横柄にコメントを 投稿してしまいまして、すぐに後悔しました。 「下」と「為」の使い方を日本人に教えられました。今 には他の日本人がもう少し教えてくださいました。ホン マニオオキニ And because I'm almost certain I fudged up somewhere (and I'd like this to be a more public shaming of myself than it was by you posting in Japanese) since I rarely write like that anymore, what I intended to say was essentially that I didn't know you were a native, I will definitely go with what you say, and that I'm appreciative to refine my knowledge of the use of kanji. I always learned the non-use of 下 in ください if it is used as an auxiliary verb with a てform verb, and I did not know the rule was relatively new. It was a mistake to so haughtily post my first comment. I nearly regretted it immediately (and especially after I did a bit more reading and realized I was not right). I changed my post quickly, but not quick enough to avoid the embarrassment of you schooling me. In any case, thanks for the lesson. OP, pay attention to what allhailhata said. He's native. 
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04-04-2010, 04:43 AM
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04-04-2010, 04:55 AM
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 1. 我らのために祈り給え 2. 私たちのために祈ってください maybe correct as official translation.because KyleGoetz knows Christian terms more than I. but my first translation is not wrong as Japanese. I'm a native,but I don't know how to pray or write or sing a song in Christian Church. @KyleGoetz . I can read English(of course,with dictionary),but I can't write well.sorry, in Japanese again. 謝る必要ないですよ  かえって恐縮してしまいますので、お気になさらずに。 日本語ですいません。私の最初の訳はAve Mariaの日本語版WIKIを参考にしています。これだと漢字を 使っています。ただし、これを誰が訳したのかは、私も わかりません。聖書等で公式な訳があるのならばそれに 従うKyleGoetzさんの訳が適切だと思います。ただ、日本人 クリスチャンの方が一番回答者としては適切だと思いま す。なので協会へリンクはりました。できればOPさんに お伝えください。アヴェ・マリア - Wikipedia 実際には、日本の教会ではどのように、クリスチャンの 方が歌ったり、お祈りしているんでしょうか？宗派によ っても違うことはあるんですかね。仏教だと重要視する お経が違ったりします。 ここからはOPさんの質問からはそれます。 「下さい」の使い分けは文法を学ぶためには合理的だと 思います。しかし、公的文書以外で、厳格に従っている 人は、それほどいないような気がします。 その使い分けは1973年に文部省によって発表されたとい ことです。当然、うちの母は気にしません。 私も1980年代に小学生でしたが、そんなことを大学卒業 で教わったことありません。かえって 勉強熱心なKyleG oetzさんのような日本語学習者の方の方が気になるかも れませんね。 日本語って面倒くさいですね 
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04-04-2010, 05:13 AM
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If it makes any difference, I'm not looking for a translation that would be given if spoken of a deity. Just "Pray for us" or "Please pray for us" as one would normally speak to another. I suppose a translation as it would be used in relation to royalty (like a queen) would be most appropriate. However, not particularly necessary.
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04-04-2010, 05:24 AM
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04-04-2010, 06:36 AM
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But basically the first is a bit more "literary" than the latter. I've never heard conjunctive+給え spoken in my life. But I'm only an above-average non-native Japanese speaker, so that could explain it, too. It sort of happened outside of your view (since the exchange was going on in Japanese), but I'm a non-native Japanese speaker and allhailhata is a native Japanese speaker. So his Japanese is better than mine. On the other hand, I'm Christian, and he's not, so I (allegedly, haha) have a bit more expertise there. My honest evaluation is that both of our answers are correct. His is absolutely grammatically perfect (him being a native). The only issue is whether his is actually what they say in church or not. I'm not 100% sure what they say in Catholic church, either (I'm a Protestant, and we don't do Hail Marys and stuff). The nice thing is that our suggestions boil down to exactly the same thing for the simple phrase "pray for us" with one being a more "literary" version. Additionally, we were discussing the translation, and allhailhata provided a good link about Ave Maria, which includes the phrase "pray for us" in it. The link he provided is the Japanese Wikipedia page for Ave Maria: アヴェ・マリア - Wikipedia Here is the more literary version of Ave Maria: アヴェ・マリア - Wikipedia Quote:
アヴェ・マリア - Wikipedia Quote:
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04-04-2010, 07:09 AM
As for not being Catholic and, thus, not knowing exactly what they would say in a Catholic Church, that is fine. I appreciate the help regardless. I did find this translation on a blog that I read which is from a Catholic who is from Japan, so it might be the best bet. It is identical to your last "colloquial" version, except for the very last characters, which I assume is just meant to be translated as "Amen."
Catholic in Japan Blog -- 恵み溢れる聖マリア、主はあなたとともにおられます。 主はあなたを選び、祝福し、あなたの子イエスも祝福さ れました。 神の母聖マリア、罪深い私達の為に、 今も、死を迎える時も祈って下さい。 アーメン。 _______________________ Megumi afureru sei Maria, Shu wa anatatachi to tomo ni oraremasu. Shu wa anata o erabi, shukufukushi, anata no ko Iesu mo shukufuku saremashita. Kami no Haha, sei Maria, tsumifukai watashitachi no tameni, ima mo, shi o mukaeru toki mo inotte kudasai. Amen.
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