~上と～上で。。。いったいどうやって区別しますか？

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by masaegu

Only the first two are grammatical and they have exactly the same meaning.
The third one makes little sense as is. It contains two mistakes if you want to correct it.

よく両親と話し合った上で決めたい > sounds more "educated"
よく両親と話し合ってから決めたい > sounds fairly childish

よく両親と話し合ったごに決めたい I didn't write the kanji 後 coz I think one of the error might have been I used あと instead?

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by chryuop

よく両親と話し合ったごに決めたい I didn't write the kanji 後 coz I think one of the error might have been I used あと instead?

OK. The 後 in that sentence will be read あと.

よく両親と話し合ったあとに決めたい。

The 話し合う needs to be put in the past tense even if the talk hasn't even started as the speaker says this.

We need to add に or で immediately after the あと.
___________

In order for 後 to be read ご, it must be directly preceded by an on-reading noun.

夕食後（ゆうしょくご）
数分後（すうふんご）
死後（しご）

The only exception that I can think of to this general "rule" is found in the phrase その後（ご）.

[lovelysunflower]

Poor masaegu先生! While it must be a delight to teach, it must also be troublesome to have to explain everything by yourself.


To chryuop and Misericordias, I'm going to suggest to you guys the Nihongo sou Matome [Bunpou Hen] book (the N2 level might be suitable for you two if you've mastered basic grammar) put out by ASK publishing (アスク出版).

That book is my grammar god. It's put out as a study guide for the JLPT (Japanese Learning Proficiency Test), but I would say it bears use for anyone trying to transition from a high basic level of Japanese to an intermediate or lower advanced level of Japanese. The daily lessons are clear cut yet thorough, allowing for you to learn something new and amazing each day (literally! lol. You do two pages a day for eight weeks).

( >3>);; (lol It almost sounds like I'm advertising.) But seriously, it's worth the money. (It actually deals with different grammar structures dealing with 上 on the first day of the 5th week.)

...Still, somehow I have the feeling that regardless of what I buy or study I'll never be as good at Japanese as masaegu先生 is at English.

I'm still going to buy the next level! After I finish this week's lesson. XD

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by masaegu

OK. The 後 in that sentence will be read あと.

よく両親と話し合ったあとに決めたい。

The 話し合う needs to be put in the past tense even if the talk hasn't even started as the speaker says this.

We need to add に or で immediately after the あと.
___________

In order for 後 to be read ご, it must be directly preceded by an on-reading noun.

夕食後（ゆうしょくご）
数分後（すうふんご）
死後（しご）

The only exception that I can think of to this general "rule" is found in the phrase その後（ご）.

Yea when you said about the 2 errors I remembered immediately あと requires past and とき present...I always repeated those rules in my head to get them stuck there and when I use it I use it wrong LOL.
You said 2 errors so I was looking for the second one and I couldn't find it, thus I tried with ごに. Mine I guess was more an error of study, or let's say I used the wrong material. I quote here the place where it speaks about "after" in my quick reference book:

"mae" and "ato" are also used for joining some sentences to express the time relations of activities, .
　　And "kara"as well as "ato" is used to mean "after--"
Let's see example

Original:Watashi wa asa-gohan o tabemasu Soshite, Watashi wa shigoto ni ikimasu.
( I eat breakfast. and then I go to work)

*<mae>_expression => Watashi wa shigoto ni iku mae ni asa-gohan o tabemasu.
( I eat breakfast before going to work )
*<ato>_expression => Watashi wa asa-gohan o tabe-ta ato (de), shigoto ni ikimasu.
( I go to work after eating breakfast)
*<kara>_expression => Watashi wa asa-gohan o tabe-te kara , shigoto ni ikimasu.
( I go to work after eatig breakfast)

[ Grammatical notes ]
* The particles "ni" or "de"after "mae/ato"are optional. (not necessary to follow "mae/ato")

Because of those grammatical notes I got used to just placing a , after あと and まえ.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by chryuop

Yea when you said about the 2 errors I remembered immediately あと requires past and とき present...

とき doesn't "require" present. You can use past. It's just the meaning changes:

東京にいるとき、... while in Tokyo [the time I was in the state of being in Tokyo]
東京にいたとき... after having been in Tokyo [the time I was in the state of having been but no longer being in Tokyo]

[chryuop]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

とき doesn't "require" present. You can use past. It's just the meaning changes:

東京にいるとき、... while in Tokyo [the time I was in the state of being in Tokyo]
東京にいたとき... after having been in Tokyo [the time I was in the state of having been but no longer being in Tokyo]

I know. I learnt present with とき so I don't fall into the mistake of doing literal translation like I have done with あと. Once I remember that when I use とき with present it assume a past meaning (or better same tense of main clause) it is easy to talk about an action happened before the main clause. In Italian and English we use tenses in these 2 cases that are pretty much different from Japanese so I need a reminder.
I went through the same process when I was studying English and the terrible 3 "if" clauses. In order to remember them I learnt if+present followed by will. That doesn't mean you can't have present perfect...too difficult to explain
Thank you anyway for correcting me