Regular Verb Modification

[RobinMask]

Post Deleted.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

I just wondered if there were any rules to remember what counts as a Regular 1 verb, and what counts as a Regular 2 verb?

Just I've picked up learning Japanese again, and as I was revising my past lessons I came to a section on how to change verbs from their -masu form into their dictionary form and -nai form. I understand the rules fine, but the only issue is if I was given a new piece of vocabulary to learn, how would I know which type of verb it is in order to modify it accordingly?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I did do a search but couldn't find anything relevant :-/

I can't remember which one is which, so I won't call them 1 and 2 (Japanese don't call them this, either; I think linguists refer to them as 1-step and 5-step verbs, or １段 and ５段).

In general (although there are famous, oft-used exceptions), if it ends in いる／える then it's one type. Everything else except する and くる is the other type.

Now, the most common exception is 帰る (to return). It ends in える but is not that type. It is conjugated as かえります, not かえます.

Other irregular verbs include くださる, which is conjugated as くださいます instead of くださります. But you'll learn these as you go along.

You know only by using and looking at usage. Imagine if you didn't speak English and I taught you "add 'ed' or 'd' to the end of a verb to get past tense." You can see it works for outfox->outfoxed, need->needed. But then you get bed->bedded! And even worse, you get eat->ate (you move the first letter to the end??)! Then bleed->bled (feed->fed, but not heed->hed), etc. You only learn by using and seeing how others use it.

tl;dr version: There's a rule of thumb, but it's not always accurate. Maybe 80-90% of the time it is accurate.

[RobinMask]

Post Deleted.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by RobinMask

Thank you very much for the reply, KyleGoetz

I have to admit to a small bit of confusion, but I was able to follow what you said and make sense of it. Your analogy to English helped me to understand it further, and by the sounds of things it would probably be best to immerse myself in the language and learn by practise/listening, rather than concentrating solely on grammatical rules.

I have to admit there have been a few times I was able to modify the verbs in my textbook accurately, just because I knew it sounded 'right' despite not knowing the rules, but being someone who likes rules and structures it's a pain sometimes not being able to apply solid rules to certain verbs and work them out right away . . .

So iru/eru is one type, kuru/suru the irregular type, and everything else the other regular type? Although that's bearing in mind the many exceptions, such as 'kaerimasu'?

Please pardon the use of romaji, and sorry if I sound really stupid for asking this. I'm doing great with the vocabulary, but I seem to be struggling with the grammatical parts

Correct. In general, iru/eru is one type, kuru/suru is one time, and "everything else" is the other type.

Beyond that are a few, very rare, irregular verbs. irassyaru and kudasaru are the two that immediately jump to mind. And they're not totally irregular; they are only irregular for certain tenses/cases.

For example, aru (to exist) is regular for many tenses (arimasu, atta, arimasita, etc.). However, it is irregular for negative plain (nai rather than aranai).

irassyaru is regular for things like irassyatta, but irregular for irassyaimasu, irassyaimase, irassyaimasita, etc.

Of course, I may be forcing Japanese into a very English-language framework here; it's possible a native Japanese will come in and say "what? aru is definitely regular, what are you doing saying a 'regular' form for its plain negative would be 'aranai'?!" I'm just thinking "regular" would mean "it ends in 'ru' and not 'eru' or 'iru,' so turn the 'ru' into 'ra' and add 'nai,' which is the way we are taught in non-native Japanese classes."