Your honest opinion of these people...

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

If you go into Donki, along with the usual costumes, you'll find costumes made for men that are like school girl outfits that come with wigs and stuff. It's supposed to be funny, but I don't get it. Not saying my humor is better, but I can't see the funniness.

It's a certain brand of humour and a certain brand of people that really work it I guess. The UK at least has had not a few celebrity transvestites (Lily Savage, Eddie Izzard, Dame Edna etc), or even women who were famous for dressing androgynously like Katherine Hepburn or that crazy model. And it's a comedy staple of pantomime, theatre, charity fun runs and Rugby club pub crawls.

Ask anyone who goes to and enthuses over Rocky Horror; it's hilarious to see a guy wear women's lingerie, funny-horrible if he does it badly and downright impressive if he does it well.

It's a kind of performance art; not to everyone's taste, but on a similar line to Hard Gay. It's shock value to a degree. Some people find Lady Gaga inspirational, some find her bafflingly ridiculous. Some people are fans of transvestite celebrities, others want to vomit at the very idea. *shrug* c'est la vie.

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

"Talents" on Japanese TV are there because there is something they have about themselves that is unique. If they were on TV only to be ridiculed I would be very disturbed, but EVERYONE on TV is ridiculed save a precious few, so I don't think these people are being singled out. I am sure they are being paid and would rather be on TV than not.

I totally agree, it's what I was trying to get at regarding them not seeming to be any more or less talented than any other "talents" I see on tv here..

I feel it's safe to assume that if they were exactly the same, except not cross-dressers, they wouldn't be on TV.
So it's clearly the primary reason fro them being there.
What I keep wondering is; how is that perceived by the general audience, and is it insulting behavior or liberal and modern?

I'm just still thrown off guard by it, years later, that I still can't figure it out lol

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by Columbine

It's a certain brand of humour and a certain brand of people that really work it I guess. The UK at least has had not a few celebrity transvestites (Lily Savage, Eddie Izzard, Dame Edna etc), or even women who were famous for dressing androgynously like Katherine Hepburn or that crazy model. And it's a comedy staple of pantomime, theatre, charity fun runs and Rugby club pub crawls.

Ask anyone who goes to and enthuses over Rocky Horror; it's hilarious to see a guy wear women's lingerie, funny-horrible if he does it badly and downright impressive if he does it well.

It's a kind of performance art; not to everyone's taste, but on a similar line to Hard Gay. It's shock value to a degree. Some people find Lady Gaga inspirational, some find her bafflingly ridiculous. Some people are fans of transvestite celebrities, others want to vomit at the very idea. *shrug* c'est la vie.

and where do you stand?
and more importantly, where do you think Japanese society stands on the topic, generally?

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Columbine

It's a kind of performance art; not to everyone's taste, but on a similar line to Hard Gay. It's shock value to a degree. Some people find Lady Gaga inspirational, some find her bafflingly ridiculous. Some people are fans of transvestite celebrities, others want to vomit at the very idea. *shrug* c'est la vie.

I can't think of any popular transvestite celebrities on American TV currently, but there is a niche for gay celebrities, as conservative as America may seem. But it's just as you described from a UK perspective, it's simply a niche that does it for some people and not for others.
However in Japan, it seems to be treated in the same regard as any other type of comedy or humor. You'll see comedy sketches and whatnot that simply throw in a transvestite and everyone just goes along with it.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

I totally agree, it's what I was trying to get at regarding them not seeming to be any more or less talented than any other "talents" I see on tv here..

I feel it's safe to assume that if they were exactly the same, except not cross-dressers, they wouldn't be on TV.
So it's clearly the primary reason fro them being there.
What I keep wondering is; how is that perceived by the general audience, and is it insulting behavior or liberal and modern?

I'm just still thrown off guard by it, years later, that I still can't figure it out lol

From what I can gather, this conversation is more odd than cross-dressers being on Japanese TV. "How it is perceived" is they are people and they are on TV. Little more and little less.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by RealJames

and where do you stand?
and more importantly, where do you think Japanese society stands on the topic, generally?

Me? I really don't mind transvestism as a whole; it doesn't annoy or disturb me. As for those particular ones cited above, I know nothing about them so I can't really comment; For me it would depend on their personalities as to if I found them endearing or abhorrent or not, not their cross-dressing. Same with gay idols. Pineapple Dance's Louis makes me howl and smash the remote control to MAKE IT STOP GET OFF MY SCREEN JUST NO!, but I quite like John Barrowman. TBH as far as Japanese screen icons go, i'm more annoyed by that girl who eats a lot.

I think this is absolutely nothing new. Cross-dressing in the Japanese media has been going on for literally centuries; there's not really an ingrained heavy-duty historical cultural bias against it. These are basically the modern day equivalent of onnagata but (I assume) rather less artistically skilled. Considering the sheer number of anime/manga/drama/films/tv shows out there in Japan which feature one or more character cross-dressing, it's really practically common place. I distinctly recall a whole game show where the purpose was to dress high school boys up as girls and send them on little 'dates' (it was very innocent) with male talents. Malice Mizer built a career off of it. So have umptybillion Vkei artists since. Japan doesn't seem bothered by it. It's cute/funny/or just 'there' like anime is 'there' as far as different people are concerned. As MMM said, they're people on TV with a gimmick, like 90 bajillion and one other 'talents'.

Oddly, I can't see what the fuss about Japanese transvestite talents are because it's REALLY not like it's a) as i said before, anything new, or b) alien to the foreign market too. Some of the most popular anime's abroad have featured gender-bending and cross-dressing, not least including Slayers, Sailor Moon**, Naruto, Hana Yori Dango, Fruits Basket, Ouran High School Host Club, Bleach, Gravitation, One Piece and virtually anything ever by Kaori Yuki. That's just off the top of my head. The inclusion of this hasn't alienated a foreign market. Actually the only one I have literally ever heard people moaning about (Asides from crazy evangelicals) is that demon guy from.... that butler anime. Red hair. Apparently the manga-ka revealed he's a MtoF transexual, which sunk a lot of BL fandom ships and incurred fangirl outrage.

There's also western skit artists too, who frequently cross dress; Little Britain's Vicky Pollard, emily and florence derive most of their comic effect from the fact that they're played by men. David Bowie, Marlyn Manson the entirety of Queen and others besides have done it just for kicks and a big fat profit.

** Yes this was edited out in the Anime but the english language manga release had no such qualms.

/ long post is long.

[Nyororin]

I`ve always noticed that instead of just being ridiculed (like everyone else is...), there is a lot of weight given to their preferences. As if they are more cultured, fashionable, etc, than regular women. That opinion seems to carry over into the real world - if you have a lot more to cover, chances are you`re going to know a lot more about makeup and fashion.

Really though, as MMM said, it`s all about being unique. If someone has some trait that gets attention - it can be a ticket to fame. You can`t blame them for grabbing it... There is a lot of poking fun and light hearted ridicule done, but I have never seen any malicious ridicule. It`s a job, and they`re one of the bunch it seems.

The true nastiness is saved for the more "normal" talent - as being harassed is their claim to fame.

Anyway, it isn`t as if they just randomly picked people off the street to make fun of. These are people who fought their way to the top, honing their character, and who know exactly what they were getting into.

[tenmins]

Hi RealJames,

If you had an option in the vote

• They are sometimes entertaining but not doing the honest gay community any favours

I would have voted for that one. My wife and I often watch Japanese dramas and they occasionally touch on the topic of being a gay male. (Haven't seen any gay female situations yet.) Unfortunately the image is always the same. If you dress up like a girl so that we know you are different to us then we will laugh and accept you, no problems. If you dress like a normal guy and we wouldn't know you are gay if we walked past you in the street, run for the hills! The gay characters in these dramas are often portrayed as having a 'problem' and experiencing heavy internal conflict and sometimes end up killing themselves or running away.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Japanese dramas (apart from the more bizarre ones) but this is a theme I have seen a few times and it makes me think the idea of being a non-transvestite gay in Japan is still taboo.

[Distortedshell]

i have no idea who these people are, or what they do. Are they "media relevant" somehow? By just looking at the pictures they look like funny people/comedians or such, but I wouldn't know who they are.

[edelweiss]

I am not familiar with all the talent shown, but are they transvestites or are they transgendered and/or are they gay? It's not like all these things go hand in hand 100% of the time.

Like Dame Edna is a straight man in a dress just for comedy reasons. Eddie Izzard is a transvestite - a straight male who feels more comfortable in women's clothing which he uses for his act. RuPaul is a drag queen - a gay man dressing as a woman for entertainment - no intention of ever being a woman. Model Lea T. is a transexual -a woman full time. I hate seeing all these types being lumped together as the same thing.

So are these talento shown gay men or straight men out of character? Or are they transgendered? Just want to know for the sake of this convo...