Martial Arts

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Hmn. Not really. At first, yes, I was throwing my leg, about a year ago, but with practice I got control. I can now do a side kick at my head height and hold it after full thrust for about 1 second and then have to retreat it. This is from hours of practice. I saw once, Bruce Lee do the same kick I am talking about, and then hold it there for an extended time. I expect if I keep practicing the kick I will eventually be able to do the same thing. Kicking is stretching, it develops the flexability you need for that kick, and unlike stretching, you practice the technique and power and muscle you need for it at the same time. I see no need to stretch in martial arts unless you think it is good for a cool down to loosen up the muscles. But I just do a slow walk around and shake my body up for this and am fine, so...

I see.. well if you're happy with your ability then that's fine as your kicking will maintain you flexibility but it won't improve it. Personally I find high kicks are beautiful and while Asakura is correct, flexibility is but one factor in the equation, it's a factor that needs to be improved in my case nonetheless to achieve the results I want. Therefore for me stretching is important in training.

[Jaydelart]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Stretching is not that important. I dont do it and can do kicks at my own head height quite well (I am 186cm) and with ease. If you want to get good at kicking, practice kicking, if you want to get good at stretching, practice stretching, but the two are unrelated. Someone good at stretching is not automatically good at high kicks, and someone good at high kicks, like me, might be poor at stretching, like me. I never do it unless the teacher tells me.

I understand what you mean.

In my case, however, some of my training involves various dodging maneuvers that require a significant amount of flexibility and control to perform. Therefore, it is essential for me to stretch.
Muay Thai fighters (like yourself) generally don't flip or roll during a fight, so it's somewhat understandable that you wouldn't emphasize stretching to the same degree.

Different martial arts may encourage stretching at different levels -- but recognition of it's importance exists, nonetheless. It provides many of benefits.

~ But that still doesn't change the fact that I hate doing it, of course.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by Jaydelart

I understand what you mean.

In my case, however, some of my training involves various dodging maneuvers that require a significant amount of flexibility and control to perform. Therefore, it is essential for me to stretch.
Muay Thai fighters (like yourself) generally don't flip or roll during a fight, so it's somewhat understandable that you wouldn't emphasize stretching to the same degree.

Different martial arts may encourage stretching at different levels -- but recognition of it's importance exists, nonetheless. It provides many of benefits.

~ But that still doesn't change the fact that I hate doing it, of course.

Strongly agree. I hope what I was about to say is not going to offend anyone, but why would you (Tenchu) make a comment like that? As mentioned, stretching provides many benefit, and no one said anything about kicking high and stretches.

Many don't have the gift you have to be able to kick high without stretching.

Kicking high is one thing, but doesn't all exercise and sport ask their athelete to stretch prior? Flexibility give you more impulsive power, while many consider "kick" alone is a form of dyanmic stretches, the "pulling" of your tendon is very different from the "pulling" of your muscle.

Something more scientific
If you are not flexible enough and even if you are, but your muscles is not in a relax "stretched" state, you won't be able to generate enough power, simple because as you kick, its MORE than your tendon thats being pulled, but the muscle, the muscle will react to this pull and contrapt. As a result, your own muscle becomes your enemies' defense, as now you can't kick as strong as you could. The other problem is that, if you do this repeatedly, you start building up tight muscle, not the type that you think you can show off with, but the type that is a form of an injuries. With kick, your glut (BUTT), is extremely vulnerable to this kind of injuries, long term kicking without proper stretches WILL damage this glut muscle, the tightening is known as Piriformis Symdrome (spelleing)... Its a long term problem that cannot be easily fixed, some have to go through surgery to have the muscle detached

High kicks are nice and great, but for the most part useless (sorry). In a fight the basic technique are usually the most useful

Concerning Muay Thai, they are great, and I don't know if they do stretches in class, but I have at leat 6 muay thai student that joined my class to learn how to strecht......

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by godwine

Kicking high is one thing, but doesn't all exercise and sport ask their athelete to stretch prior? Flexibility give you more impulsive power, while many consider "kick" alone is a form of dyanmic stretches, the "pulling" of your tendon is very different from the "pulling" of your muscle.

Something more scientific
If you are not flexible enough and even if you are, but your muscles is not in a relax "stretched" state, you won't be able to generate enough power, simple because as you kick, its MORE than your tendon thats being pulled, but the muscle, the muscle will react to this pull and contrapt.

This certainly from an outsiders viewpoint when it comes to kicks, but even when I was weight training in college, which did not require any flexibility, an emphasis was placed on stretching at the beginning of the work out because of what you've described. If the muscles and tendons have not been stretched, there is less blood flow and flexibility than there would be otherwise. Thus there are less chemical resources for the muscles to use - hence less power and more risk of injury. Aside from flexibility being a general, life-long, health issue, why wouldn't you stretch to put your muscles at peak readiness? It doesn't take that long and it will pay off in the long run.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

This certainly from an outsiders viewpoint when it comes to kicks, but even when I was weight training in college, which did not require any flexibility, an emphasis was placed on stretching at the beginning of the work out because of what you've described. If the muscles and tendons have not been stretched, there is less blood flow and flexibility than there would be otherwise. Thus there are less chemical resources for the muscles to use - hence less power and more risk of injury. Aside from flexibility being a general, life-long, health issue, why wouldn't you stretch to put your muscles at peak readiness? It doesn't take that long and it will pay off in the long run.

Thanks for the backup You know, I've been teaching MA for quite a number of years, stretched athelete are also more responsive and have faster reaction... I weight train too, with MA in place, it makes it even more important because of muscle tightness

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by Asakura

You don't nessesaraly "have" to stretch. But if you're going into really complicated kicks or manuvers that require you be flexible, it's a good idea, it can avoid injury so it's not totally without merit.

You need to warm up is what you mean. Obviously I dont go straight to the bag and do a full blown high kick. Start slow, low kicks, as your blood heats up start increaseing power and height. You dont need stretches to warm up. I find running is better for warm up.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I see.. well if you're happy with your ability then that's fine as your kicking will maintain you flexibility but it won't improve it.

... I dont think you are listening to what I am saying. I AM getting better. My kicks ARE getting higher. I AM gaining more control. This is not something you can pass off as a theory. For that matter I am the best high kicker at my gym, and I probably stretch the least.

Originally Posted by Jaydelart

Different martial arts may encourage stretching at different levels -- but recognition of it's importance exists, nonetheless. It provides many of benefits.

What style do you do? Judo or Aikido or something?

Originally Posted by godwine

Many don't have the gift you have to be able to kick high without stretching.

You guys dont listen... When I first started kicking, in my own time, BTW, because there is no high kicking in Wing Chun Kung Fu, I was doing side kicks not higher than my own waist height. Now, from practicing the kick I am up to my own head height. I was not 'gifted', it came through hard work and practice, but no stretching.

Originally Posted by godwine

Kicking high is one thing, but doesn't all exercise and sport ask their athelete to stretch prior? Flexibility give you more impulsive power, while many consider "kick" alone is a form of dyanmic stretches, the "pulling" of your tendon is very different from the "pulling" of your muscle.

Just because they tell you to stretch it does not mean it is good, or right. It is same like the world is divided up into so many religions or atheism, but only one - if any - religion/atheism is right. That means the remainder somewhat 80% of the world is like, way deluded and stupid. When I was in the Army they told me they had done a test. Simply, before exersize half the recruits would wamr up, the other half would not. They did this a lot and the results showed the injury ratio was unaffected by whether or not you warmed up.

Originally Posted by godwine

Something more scientific
If you are not flexible enough and even if you are, but your muscles is not in a relax "stretched" state, you won't be able to generate enough power, simple because as you kick, its MORE than your tendon thats being pulled, but the muscle, the muscle will react to this pull and contrapt. As a result, your own muscle becomes your enemies' defense, as now you can't kick as strong as you could. The other problem is that, if you do this repeatedly, you start building up tight muscle, not the type that you think you can show off with, but the type that is a form of an injuries. With kick, your glut (BUTT), is extremely vulnerable to this kind of injuries, long term kicking without proper stretches WILL damage this glut muscle, the tightening is known as Piriformis Symdrome (spelleing)... Its a long term problem that cannot be easily fixed, some have to go through surgery to have the muscle detached.

I agree, you need to both warm up and cool down. Like I said, start off slow, low kicks, low pace, as you warm up and your muscles stretch and relax out then increase the height and pace. For cool down I usually do slow arobics style things for five mins. Occassionaly I throw my leg up onto the ring side to stretch out the hammy if it feels tight. If I think I worked too hard then I wont ignore it, a swim is best, and I make my wife massage me as well. Or, like, after a hard run dont just stop running and thats it, walk a couple of hundred metres before you stop to get that cool down. Simply, I am training at a professional level and everywhere everyone wants to stretch, the Army said there is no point, they just do cool down exersizes same like me, and half an hour before and after a 3 hour class is just pissing me off. It is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by godwine

High kicks are nice and great, but for the most part useless (sorry). In a fight the basic technique are usually the most useful

Arogance will get you NOWHERE. With punches it is so fast paced and you normal have to land a combo to get a KO, but kick jousting is about timing, and you only have to land one to win. It all just takes practice.

Originally Posted by godwine

Concerning Muay Thai, they are great, and I don't know if they do stretches in class, but I have at leat 6 muay thai student that joined my class to learn how to strecht......

They do stretch in Muay Thai. So how experienced were they, and what class do you teach?

Originally Posted by TalnSG

This certainly from an outsiders viewpoint when it comes to kicks, but even when I was weight training in college, which did not require any flexibility, an emphasis was placed on stretching at the beginning of the work out because of what you've described. If the muscles and tendons have not been stretched, there is less blood flow and flexibility than there would be otherwise. Thus there are less chemical resources for the muscles to use - hence less power and more risk of injury.

This is just warming up, again. There are other better ways, I think. It is up to the individual.

Originally Posted by godwine

Thanks for the backup You know, I've been teaching MA for quite a number of years, stretched athelete are also more responsive and have faster reaction... I weight train too, with MA in place, it makes it even more important because of muscle tightness

And what 'MA' do you teach?

[Ramones1976]

I want to learn Wushu, Jujitsu/Judo, and Kendo

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

... I dont think you are listening to what I am saying. I AM getting better. My kicks ARE getting higher. I AM gaining more control. This is not something you can pass off as a theory. For that matter I am the best high kicker at my gym, and I probably stretch the least.

[

Well if you're getting better it could possibly be due to increased strength and refined technique rather than a major improvement in flexibility. Sure you may be seeing gains... but the way in which you're training you'll never achieve the kind of kicks that I find amazing... which is OK because Muay Thai doesn't stress these kinds of kicks as these sorts of kicks are not practical to use in real life

Bottom line is you can't dismiss stretching... I'll leave you with this to think about.... the average Senior Wushu student or Black Belt TaekwonDo practitioner can hold their leg up and do all sorts of crazy things with it before putting it back on the ground. The Muay Thai fighter generally can't. Stretching is a big part of training in Wushu and Taekwondo and high kicks a more important technique in the art.

[Jaydelart]

Originally Posted by godwine

In a fight the basic technique are usually the most useful

I agree.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Arogance will get you NOWHERE. With punches it is so fast paced and you normal have to land a combo to get a KO, but kick jousting is about timing, and you only have to land one to win. It all just takes practice.

In a real life situation, your opponent may not always be willing to "kick joust".

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Well if you're getting better it could possibly be due to increased strength and refined technique rather than a major improvement in flexibility. Sure you may be seeing gains... but the way in which you're training you'll never achieve the kind of kicks that I find amazing... which is OK because Muay Thai doesn't stress these kinds of kicks as these sorts of kicks are not practical to use in real life

You are determined to get me wrong. Arn't you. I would call an increase of 1 metre in height in 2 years okay, esp. given I wasn't even focusing on it.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Bottom line is you can't dismiss stretching... I'll leave you with this to think about.... the average Senior Wushu student or Black Belt TaekwonDo practitioner can hold their leg up and do all sorts of crazy things with it before putting it back on the ground. The Muay Thai fighter generally can't. Stretching is a big part of training in Wushu and Taekwondo and high kicks a more important technique in the art.

I am not dissmissing it, more so saying it is way over rated. Wushu masters started at ages always below 8 years old. That counts for a lot. I could never do what they do, regardless of what technique I used. Aside flying kicks, I imagine given the progress I am making training full time, I will be able to do all Tae Kwon Do kicks resonably well at my own head height in about 2 years. But flying kicks might be too late for me, not to mention Super Heavy Weight fighters are slightly less graceful than the Light Weight fighters TKD favors...

Can I ask you, how much time per week do you REALLY spend training in this?