Karate: Effectiver? How does it rank against other arts?

[Sangetsu]

I studied Kenpo karate years ago when I was a high school student, and then I switched to Kendo, eventually reaching "shodan". As a method of improving strength and teaching mental discipline, I found both to be very useful, but as an actual tool of self-defense, either art could only be described as "so-so". Their main benefit (particularly my kendo training) stressed mental alertness and to be aware of one's surroundings.

Martial arts are generally just that, they are "arts". And though they are well-suited to many real-life situations, they have their limits. I spent 6 years in a Army Ranger unit, and I learned much more there about fighting than I did in martial arts classes. In societies where people are generally unarmed, unarmed combat is a useful skill, but in places were people are often armed (such as much of the US), their usefulness is more limited.

I learned that the most efficient form of self-defense was simply to carry a gun or a knife, and when I lived in America I had a license that allowed me to carry both. A gun is the kind of deterrent which will usually stop any attack cold, without a punch, kick, or hold being necessary. In 99% of cases, you needn't even fire it, simply showing that you have a gun will stop an attack. The true essence of the martial arts is economy of effort, economy of movement, and minimal personal risk, and a simple weapon offers all of these.

That's not to say that the martial arts are useless, they are better than nothing when push comes to shove, they taught me to be prepared at all times, and to not pull any stops when it came to defending myself. And the most efficient way to defend myself was simply to keep myself armed.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Th
In Kumite we fight bare-fisted and a full force clenched fist to the head will injure your hand as much as the opponents head unless it is dead on target. The hand is full of fragile bones that can break easily and the human head is surprisinly harder than it looks.

Yeah, that's why MMA uses gloves now. It started barefisted but people were injuring their hands. Now the elbow...there's something that can take a lot of punishment.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The second reason is that you don't want a dojo full of braindead students. Muay Thai is a sport and a way of fighting and I respect it a lot. Karate is a way of fighting that also has a sport element but (as you probably already know) Karate also emphasises health and good character aswell. Repeated hitting to the head does damage to your brain... especially bare-fisted. Of course kicking to the head is allowed... but it happens infrequently enough for it to be OK I think.

People in my gym aren;t that brain dead. I'm fine. watch, 2+2=5 right?

I hear you.
Good reasons for not punching the face but I do think they affect how one fights.
but I've seen the Kyukushinkai Championships several times(if that's what they are called) and I can't help but come to the conclusion that Bare-fist no face affects how they fight. Like a common strategy is to push forward while throwing fist and low kicks. But, I never had a street fight with a Kyokushinkan Karateka so I can't really talk of their effectiveness. They should hold gloved matches separate from the bar-knuckled ones. Also, It would be nice to watch a good Kyokushinkan guy in MMA, see how he works out.


@Godwine
I always thought the Tonfa was Okinawan. I read in books several times.
But your logic is sound. I wonder if that spear hand method really can happen? Like spearing your hand into someones body. If, possible, that would be a deadly technique. Is there any record of someone mastering it?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I hear you.
Good reasons for not punching the face but I do think they affect how one fights.
but I've seen the Kyukushinkai Championships several times(if that's what they are called) and I can't help but come to the conclusion that Bare-fist no face affects how they fight. Like a common strategy is to push forward while throwing fist and low kicks.

Yeah you have a point there...

If you fought in the street like you fought in kumite, you might get caught out. We are taught to hit places like the groin and the throat in the dojo.. but we never practice that in kumite.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Yeah you have a point there...

If you fought in the street like you fought in kumite, you might get caught out. We are taught to hit places like the groin and the throat in the dojo.. but we never practice that in kumite.

Us too, I am positive that every single dojo will teach about the effectivenss of hitting places like the groan and such, we even have a technique that uses the spear hand to cut the eyes

As far as the spear hand is concern, it wasn't meant to penetrate the body, not as far as I know anyways, its meant to be a technique that is suppose to generate a concentrated central point of contact, i don't know of anyone who mastered it enough to be able to drive it into someon'es body, but i know of one person who uses it along the center line (groin, celiac plexus, etc)...

[chiuchimu]

^ My couch told me that long time ago, Muay Thai allowed groin kicks and headbutts too. The groin kick wasn't that effective in the ring because Thai boxers at that time( I don't know if they still do) used steel groin cups. These cups had ridged reinforcements. Full power kick to a cup like that would be painful for the kicker. you can still buy the steel cups but I doubt professionals use them. Why would anyone want one of those steel ones when there are the new high tech plastic ones that can disperse the shock.

On ,sparing. My Shotokan Sensei was a bit odd. Most Dojos practice their techiniques by the book: low deep mountain climbing stance, fist cocked at waist. etc.. But when time to spare, all correct forms are thrown out the window and everyone looks like they are kick boxing: doing the boxers shuffle, hands high, throwing jabs etc... My dojo, we spared as we did practice and Katas. Our sparing sessions were to look just like our Katas. I'm not sure if that was an effective way to spare, but boy did we look great doing it that way.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

^ My couch told me that long time ago, Muay Thai allowed groin kicks and headbutts too. The groin kick wasn't that effective in the ring because Thai boxers at that time( I don't know if they still do) used steel groin cups. These cups had ridged reinforcements. Full power kick to a cup like that would be painful for the kicker. you can still buy the steel cups but I doubt professionals use them. Why would anyone want one of those steel ones when there are the new high tech plastic ones that can disperse the shock.

On ,sparing. My Shotokan Sensei was a bit odd. Most Dojos practice their techiniques by the book: low deep mountain climbing stance, fist cocked at waist. etc.. But when time to spare, all correct forms are thrown out the window and everyone looks like they are kick boxing: doing the boxers shuffle, hands high, throwing jabs etc... My dojo, we spared as we did practice and Katas. Our sparing sessions were to look just like our Katas. I'm not sure if that was an effective way to spare, but boy did we look great doing it that way.

I assume you meant the chamber position when you said "Fist cokced at waist". It really depend on the type of sparring you do, we do some fix drills where we do use all the technique straing from the kata, the blocks usus a standard shikodachi, and all technique are properly executed as though we are doing the katas. THere are 2 form of this type of sparring for us: Kakomi Kumite and Renzuku Kumite. WHere when we do free sparring, we turn into that kickboxing form as you pointed out. We did the same thing when i was in TKD, TKD has something call 2 step or 3 step sparring, where we use kata based technique to fight, its fixed drills,but as soon as we spar, everyone turn into a kick boxer. My only complain with TKD is that, the sensei taught us all kind of kicks, but he failed to mention that some kick are totally useless because kicking a person is different from kicking a bag: People move, the block, and they fight back. THats why I am more in love with Karate now, because, i think what my sensei teaches make sense, of course, i got the added edge as my kicks are very different from everyone else thanks to TKD

[chiuchimu]

^Godwin

Yeah I agree that TKD kicks look great but many don't translate into practical fighting. Three in mind are: Axe kick, Spinning round house, and hook kick.

1) Axe kick: to go way high like that waste time and leaves the guy really vulnerable. It can break the collar bone but so can a bare fist or elbow shot which are much faster and safer to apply.

2) Spinning roundhouse: I don't get this one at all, spin, then do a round house. Why? Spinning takes time and exposes ones back. then all you do is throw a roundhouse? A Muay Thai Roundhouse can break a Femur or Shin bone without a spin.

3) Hook Kick: There is just no power in the kick and its easy to counter-step right in and throw a cross. I would go for the spinning hook kick instead, Its dangerous to try but at least it can knock someone out if it lands.

TKD does have a few good kicks though. I like the spinning back kick. Lots of power and people actually get caught by it. I also like the TKD regular roundhouse to the head. It's of the snapping type so its pretty fast. Doesn't have the power of a Muay Thai round kick but a kick to the head doesn't have to be that powerful to knock someone out or make them confused.

[godwine]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

^Godwin

Yeah I agree that TKD kicks look great but many don't translate into practical fighting. Three in mind are: Axe kick, Spinning round house, and hook kick.

1) Axe kick: to go way high like that waste time and leaves the guy really vulnerable. It can break the collar bone but so can a bare fist or elbow shot which are much faster and safer to apply.

2) Spinning roundhouse: I don't get this one at all, spin, then do a round house. Why? Spinning takes time and exposes ones back. then all you do is throw a roundhouse? A Muay Thai Roundhouse can break a Femur or Shin bone without a spin.

3) Hook Kick: There is just no power in the kick and its easy to counter-step right in and throw a cross. I would go for the spinning hook kick instead, Its dangerous to try but at least it can knock someone out if it lands.

TKD does have a few good kicks though. I like the spinning back kick. Lots of power and people actually get caught by it. I also like the TKD regular roundhouse to the head. It's of the snapping type so its pretty fast. Doesn't have the power of a Muay Thai round kick but a kick to the head doesn't have to be that powerful to knock someone out or make them confused.

I usually use round house and front kick. I agree with your assessment of the spinning round house, i never find it effective at all.. somewhat agree to the axe kick,but axe kick is actually one of my signature, and it did help me winning a couple of fight in the past.. hook kick are very very effective, i knock a few guys out with it.. hardly anyone just use it, most pepole usually use a step in to lead to the... it has the element of a suprise, which is why i find it useful... spinning hooks are good too, i find it on the slow side, but i use it too...

[chiuchimu]

^Do you have a strong front kick? mine is weak.

In fact, the front kick is called a push kick in MT because that what it amounts to. Thing for me is, if Iraise my kicking leg high, then snap out with the lower leg, there is just no power, it turns into a thrust or push. How do you do the front kick?

[godwine]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

^Do you have a strong front kick? mine is weak.

In fact, the front kick is called a push kick in MT because that what it amounts to. Thing for me is, if Iraise my kicking leg high, then snap out with the lower leg, there is just no power, it turns into a thrust or push. How do you do the front kick?

DISAGREE A push pick and a front kick is in fact 2 different thing... one is meant to make just an instantaneous contact, strong sharp concentraged contact, you kick with the ball of your feet or if you want to kick the chin you kick with your heels. A push kick is a push kick, you use it to push your oponent away, i don't think it was meant to break anything

at least thats my understanding.....

my front kick is knees up first, then kick out and pull back.....my push kick goes knee up first, then i kick but my feet will hold briefly, my supporting feet will push and the kick feet will push.. hard to explain, its jsut differet