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Karate: Effectiver? How does it rank against other arts? - 09-16-2010, 03:43 AM

I only did two years of Shotokan Karate so I'm kind of curious about what Karateka and others feel about Karate.

Some questions I wanted to cover:
1) Has karate lost effectiveness over time or is it better today?
2) How does it compare to original Chinese boxing forms?
3) What do Karateka think of TKD? are the basics barrowed from Karate?
4) the pros and cons of karate Vs other arts?


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GoNative (Offline)
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09-16-2010, 04:18 AM

I do Iaido (perfecting set kata with a katana). I reckon I'd do pretty well against a karate expert
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09-16-2010, 04:26 AM

I did Muay Thai and a bit of Kyokushin Karate.

Kyokushin Karate was just as intense as my Muay Thai trainings and I would say just as effective.
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09-16-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiuchimu View Post
I only did two years of Shotokan Karate so I'm kind of curious about what Karateka and others feel about Karate.

Some questions I wanted to cover:
1) Has karate lost effectiveness over time or is it better today?
2) How does it compare to original Chinese boxing forms?
3) What do Karateka think of TKD? are the basics barrowed from Karate?
4) the pros and cons of karate Vs other arts?
I am in Goju myself, and I did alomst 10 years of TKD and earned a 3rd den in TKD, but will be switching to Shito ryu sometime next year

1. I strongly believe the art evolved overtime, for better or for worse, thats totally your individual opiion, I don't think its as effective anymore as it removed a lot of dangerous and deadly component from the original art, but its more scientific now
2. Traditional Okinawan karate was influenced by various Chinese Art, i went up against people from different style in the past, and i say its 50/50, but in an all out sparring, i found Karate to be more effective against most chinese art. I have yet to go all out with a Wing Tsun guy, but Wing Tsun looks very effective against Karate
3. Being both a Karateka and a TKD guy, I'd say TKD borrowed the training and belt system from Karate, but a lot of the kicks are NOT from karate. Though, after so many years of TKD, i hate to say it, but a lot of TKD techniques looks great, but are totally useless, Karate technique are more objective focused - to hit or to defend..
4. Don't have an answer

Interesting, i put a lot of thoughts into the use of fixed movement lately. I remember that when Bruce Lee "invented" JKD, he suggest that a martial art is a set of theoratical movement, but it shouldn't be fixed movement. My brother in law and good friend are also in Wing Tsun, and they have demonstrated how they use these "fixed" movement to fight and it seems effective. In karate, the practice of ippon also is a form of fixed motion, and the objective is to use our muscle memory to react, and i have seen this in practice while practicing with Dai-sensei, he only use the perry and push techinque from Shisochin and it was quite effective, but then, when we spar, how much of this muscle memory can we actually use and use it effectively? That i don't know, but so far, i hate to say it, despite all the training, when i spar, there is a lot of technique involved, but none of which are from any fixed posture training... i probably need more training :P
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fatalbert130 (Offline)
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chiuchimu - 09-16-2010, 03:24 PM

1.
I do not lose the effect.
But it is said that judo deteriorated by having become the Olympics item.
(I varied from bujutu to sports)

2.
It is said to be traditional martial arts Te and the fusion of the kung fu of Okinawa Karate.

3.
WHY "KUMDO" TELLS A LIE ? Related words : martial art taekwondo HAPKIDO haidon gumdo

The taekwondo is 50 years since it is made.
The taekwondo was a tool of the politics.

Korean sports and art are always haunted by political messages.

4.
The comparison is meaningless.



For a martial art, much misunderstanding infiltrates people under the influence such as movies.

As an example.
Nuntyaku became famous by Bruce Lee, but it is a weapon of Karate of Okinawa, and it is originally harness.

By the movie, SAI is used as a weapon of the homicide. It is originally a weapon for exclusive use of the blow without the casualties power that a Chinese Buddhist monk used for the guards.
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09-16-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:
GoNative
I do Iaido (perfecting set kata with a katana). I reckon I'd do pretty well against a karate expert
At one time I wanted to do Laido too. Kendo( one year when I was a kid) to me lost most of its focus-we never even touch a Katana. I heard the sword tip is much faster than any human hand or foot. The only Laindo place is too far away.


Quote:
Ronin4hire
I did Muay Thai and a bit of Kyokushin Karate.
Kyokushin Karate was just as intense as my Muay Thai trainings and I would say just as effective.
Muay Thai many years, trained under Malaipet. I'm bios toward Thai boxing. We have Kyokushinkai at Japanese community center. I like how they can throw a high roundhouse kick at close range-something we don't do in Muay Thai. But the lack of face contact and clinch work I think seriously limits the art, at least that's how it seems to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by godwine View Post
I am in Goju myself, and I did alomst 10 years of TKD and earned a 3rd den in TKD, but will be switching to Shito ryu sometime next year

1. I strongly believe the art evolved overtime, for better or for worse, thats totally your individual opiion, I don't think its as effective anymore as it removed a lot of dangerous and deadly component from the original art, but its more scientific now
2. Traditional Okinawan karate was influenced by various Chinese Art, i went up against people from different style in the past, and i say its 50/50, but in an all out sparring, i found Karate to be more effective against most chinese art. I have yet to go all out with a Wing Tsun guy, but Wing Tsun looks very effective against Karate
3. Being both a Karateka and a TKD guy, I'd say TKD borrowed the training and belt system from Karate, but a lot of the kicks are NOT from karate. Though, after so many years of TKD, i hate to say it, but a lot of TKD techniques looks great, but are totally useless, Karate technique are more objective focused - to hit or to defend..
4. Don't have an answer

Interesting, i put a lot of thoughts into the use of fixed movement lately. I remember that when Bruce Lee "invented" JKD, he suggest that a martial art is a set of theoratical movement, but it shouldn't be fixed movement. My brother in law and good friend are also in Wing Tsun, and they have demonstrated how they use these "fixed" movement to fight and it seems effective. In karate, the practice of ippon also is a form of fixed motion, and the objective is to use our muscle memory to react, and i have seen this in practice while practicing with Dai-sensei, he only use the perry and push techinque from Shisochin and it was quite effective, but then, when we spar, how much of this muscle memory can we actually use and use it effectively? That i don't know, but so far, i hate to say it, despite all the training, when i spar, there is a lot of technique involved, but none of which are from any fixed posture training... i probably need more training :P
I found your post most interesting and high lighted some insightful parts. On the subject of 'fixed' movements. I think martial arts and virtually every skill is a form of 'fixed' movement or muscle memory.


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09-16-2010, 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiuchimu View Post
At one time I wanted to do Laido too. Kendo( one year when I was a kid) to me lost most of its focus-we never even touch a Katana. I heard the sword tip is much faster than any human hand or foot. The only Laindo place is too far away.



Muay Thai many years, trained under Malaipet. I'm bios toward Thai boxing. We have Kyokushinkai at Japanese community center. I like how they can throw a high roundhouse kick at close range-something we don't do in Muay Thai. But the lack of face contact and clinch work I think seriously limits the art, at least that's how it seems to me.





I found your post most interesting and high lighted some insightful parts. On the subject of 'fixed' movements. I think martial arts and virtually every skill is a form of 'fixed' movement or muscle memory.
Just a note, when i said not as effective, i wasn't comparing it to other arts, but from the original Karate that I know of. Again, i think they removed some of the more dangeours component, but comparing to other art, I don't know how effective it is, i attended some professional and semi-professional tournment, the results against other art is average
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09-16-2010, 06:57 PM

@fatalbert130
Good point about nunchaku. I've seen Chinese Boxing books include the nunchaku and Tonfa as traditional Chinese Kung Fu weapons. Things do get mixed up sometimes.



@Godwine
What is your opinion of "leathal techiniques"? I mean like those Din Mak points karate got from Chinese boxing. First , let me say I'm a bit skeptical. Coming from a Muay Thai( some BJJ ) back ground, I understand that martial arts can kill people. A person can be killed by an elbow at the back of the neck or skull. A person can be killed by throwing him down so his head smashes against something hard, or Choking someone to death. But beyond the obvious that are banned from profession sports like MMA, I don't think Din Mak really exist. What is your experience on the subject? Is Din Mak only taught to advanced karateka? Or is the subject gone from modern karate?


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09-16-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiuchimu View Post
@fatalbert130
Good point about nunchaku. I've seen Chinese Boxing books include the nunchaku and Tonfa as traditional Chinese Kung Fu weapons. Things do get mixed up sometimes.



@Godwine
What is your opinion of "leathal techiniques"? I mean like those Din Mak points karate got from Chinese boxing. First , let me say I'm a bit skeptical. Coming from a Muay Thai( some BJJ ) back ground, I understand that martial arts can kill people. A person can be killed by an elbow at the back of the neck or skull. A person can be killed by throwing him down so his head smashes against something hard, or Choking someone to death. But beyond the obvious that are banned from profession sports like MMA, I don't think Din Mak really exist. What is your experience on the subject? Is Din Mak only taught to advanced karateka? Or is the subject gone from modern karate?
To me the technique of dim mak does exist, just not the way how its being portrayed in movies and tv shows. We have a lot of pressure point and meridian in our body, certain tendon or nerve root could cause prolonged numbness, so i am sure if you strike it hard enough and accurate enough, it can do some serious damaage, but not to a point where the guy will die instantly or his head explode, but maybe to paralyze a certain part temporarily. My accupunture therapist used a techniue with his needle that completely disabled lower body movement temporairly so that he can treat a sciatica that I had. If someone has strong enough finger and insane accuracy can stab me really really hard at the same place, i am sure it can do some crazy damage....

As far as I know the practice of dim mak does not exist in karate, not nowadays anyays. Some discipline practice the spear hard (stabbing with the index and middle finger) on the makiwara, but i don't think the use of strenghtening the fingers in Karate has anything to do with Dim Mak. Dim mak require precise accuracy and power, the practice in Karate produces the power, but not the accuracy

Dai sensei always said - master the basic and you master the art, and to us the basic are the few strikes and kick, and some very very limited grappling

I am going to aruge the tonfa cliam a little, though i do agree that the Nunchuku was originated from Okinawa. Tonfa was originated either from China or India.. its one of the more original "weapons" the monk practice with when they needed something for the purpose of self defense. I strongly believe this cliam, because if you look at both Kobudo and Karate (Rarely in Karate), the use of Kama, Sai, Bo and Nunchuku is very very mature, but the use of the tonfa is very limited.

Last edited by godwine : 09-16-2010 at 07:28 PM.
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09-16-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiuchimu View Post
Muay Thai many years, trained under Malaipet. I'm bios toward Thai boxing. We have Kyokushinkai at Japanese community center. I like how they can throw a high roundhouse kick at close range-something we don't do in Muay Thai. But the lack of face contact and clinch work I think seriously limits the art, at least that's how it seems to me.
The reason why it is said that you don't hit the face with the hands in Kyokushin Kumite is for two reasons.

In Kumite we fight bare-fisted and a full force clenched fist to the head will injure your hand as much as the opponents head unless it is dead on target. The hand is full of fragile bones that can break easily and the human head is surprisinly harder than it looks.

The second reason is that you don't want a dojo full of braindead students. Muay Thai is a sport and a way of fighting and I respect it a lot. Karate is a way of fighting that also has a sport element but (as you probably already know) Karate also emphasises health and good character aswell. Repeated hitting to the head does damage to your brain... especially bare-fisted. Of course kicking to the head is allowed... but it happens infrequently enough for it to be OK I think.

Last edited by Ronin4hire : 09-16-2010 at 09:43 PM.
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