Being gay in Japan [merged]

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

Yes, I did read articles. No, I'm not going to spend time looking up those articles for you. Google is actually pretty easy if you try looking them up yourself.

I said I wanted to read the articles you had read.

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

The oppression of sexuality is a global event, not just a Western thing. Don't ask, don't tell is found in the West too. It's a code of conduct in the military. It takes away a basic right for men and women in the military. It takes away a basic right for men and women all over the world where ignoring their sexuality is a way of life. Japan isn't excluded from that. Even if you apply don't ask, don't tell to every single detail of a culture, it doesn't mean it's not oppressive in anyway.

In a country as small and sometimes tightly packed in Japan, privacy is treated differently than it is in the west. Home bathing is a relatively new concept, and it was common for everyone to know what everyone in the neighborhood looked like naked because they all bathed together. This is still very common to this day, and hot springs are destination spots for tourists.

What it means is you don't go around and whisper about so-and-so's body behind her back because you are just as susceptible to the same scrutiny. I don't talk about your business if you don't talk about mine.

If sexual oppression is a global phenomenon, then Japan is probably as much a part of it as anywhere else. But that isn't the question that was raised, and I am not interested in a political discussion when we are already dancing on the edge of the rules.

There are many popular performers who are gay, lesbian and transgender, but like I stated above, no one famous talks about their private lives, gay or not. Society has created these lines for everyone, not just gays.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

I said I wanted to read the articles you had read.



In a country as small and sometimes tightly packed in Japan, privacy is treated differently than it is in the west. Home bathing is a relatively new concept, and it was common for everyone to know what everyone in the neighborhood looked like naked because they all bathed together. This is still very common to this day, and hot springs are destination spots for tourists.

What it means is you don't go around and whisper about so-and-so's body behind her back because you are just as susceptible to the same scrutiny. I don't talk about your business if you don't talk about mine.

If sexual oppression is a global phenomenon, then Japan is probably as much a part of it as anywhere else. But that isn't the question that was raised, and I am not interested in a political discussion when we are already dancing on the edge of the rules.

There are many popular performers who are gay, lesbian and transgender, but like I stated above, no one famous talks about their private lives, gay or not. Society has created these lines for everyone, not just gays.

And I said I'm not going to look for them for you. I didn't memorize the links. I found them on Google. Let it go.

I don't really understand what the point of the history of bathing in Japan is. If it's to say that Japan is a country of don't ask, don't tell - then yes, I already understand that. Many countries hold this same concept. It's still oppressive.

See, Japan is a heteronormative society. That means that everyone is assumed to be straight. If someone cannot correct the mistaken assumption that they are straight, then they are being forced to ignore their identity. It's a fact that if you can't speak about your identity, then you are being oppressed.

I'm not really sure why this is becoming such a back-and-forth. No offense, but it's a little annoying now. Let's just agree to disagree.

Also: if you're going to use gay to describe someone, the correct term is "gay people." "Gays" comes off a little derogatory.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

And I said I'm not going to look for them for you. I didn't memorize the links. I found them on Google. Let it go.

I don't really understand what the point of the history of bathing in Japan is. If it's to say that Japan is a country of don't ask, don't tell - then yes, I already understand that. Many countries hold this same concept. It's still oppressive.

See, Japan is a heteronormative society. That means that everyone is assumed to be straight. If someone cannot correct the mistaken assumption that they are straight, then they are being forced to ignore their identity. It's a fact that if you can't speak about your identity, then you are being oppressed.

I'm not really sure why this is becoming such a back-and-forth. No offense, but it's a little annoying now. Let's just agree to disagree.

Also: if you're going to use gay to describe someone, the correct term is "gay people." "Gays" comes off a little derogatory.

I simply tried to answer your question, but it sounds like you already had the answer. I didn't mean to annoy. Enjoy your time in Kyoto.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

I simply tried to answer your question, but it sounds like you already had the answer. I didn't mean to annoy. Enjoy your time in Kyoto.

It's okay. I don't mind having discussions on the Internet, but word choice and certain tones make talking on forums like this a little frustrating.

Yes, you did answer my question. You told me I won't be butchered, which is really all I wanted to know. I should have thanked you for responding with that, which I didn't, so I'm sorry. Thanks for letting me know.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

It's okay. I don't mind having discussions on the Internet, but word choice and certain tones make talking on forums like this a little frustrating.

Yes, you did answer my question. You told me I won't be butchered, which is really all I wanted to know. I should have thanked you for responding with that, which I didn't, so I'm sorry. Thanks for letting me know.

I am going to put this in a nice a way as possible, only because I have seen it happen with my own two eyes in Japan.

If choosing to use a word like "gays" (a word I didn't know now was off-limits until you just said so, despite the fact it has been used in LGBT literature for decades) sparks an emotional response in you, then I think you are going to need some thicker skin before moving to Kyoto.

One of my good friends when I lived in Japan was a very outgoing tall African American woman in her early 20s (like me she had just graduated from college). She was one of the most popular people I knew, and she often hosted events...a real leader...but it wasn't that many weeks or months that people started seeing a change. She got depressed, and I think a lot of it had to do with being so different in a place where so much is the same (hair color, uniforms, etc.) Put simply, she was sensitive to people's word choices and correcting stereotypes and language. Eventually it beat her down, and she snapped...lost touch with reality, and basically had to go home in a straight-jacket. (Her family had to fly to Japan and move her as she wasn't able to do so on her own.)

Like you mentioned the ignorance on the black in Japan thread, ignorance on this issue is probably rampant to western LGBT eyes. Gay people are generally called "homo". Transgenders are called "new half". Mixed race children are called "half". None of these words is meant to demean, it's just ignorance, but it is demeaning to native English speaking ears.

In Japan my friend tried to be a rock, but the biggest and strongest rock can eventually be chipped away. As a foreigner in Japan, you have to be water, because in the end water is stronger than the rock, but it means you have to go with the flow and choose your battles wisely.

I do appreciate your apology and I am not trying to diminish what you are fighting for in any way. I do not know you or anything about you besides what you shared, but your comments reminded me of my friend, and I wish she had understood that Japan will change you more than you will change Japan.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am going to put this in a nice a way as possible, only because I have seen it happen with my own two eyes in Japan.

If choosing to use a word like "gays" (a word I didn't know now was off-limits until you just said so, despite the fact it has been used in LGBT literature for decades) sparks an emotional response in you, then I think you are going to need some thicker skin before moving to Kyoto.

One of my good friends when I lived in Japan was a very outgoing tall African American woman in her early 20s (like me she had just graduated from college). She was one of the most popular people I knew, and she often hosted events...a real leader...but it wasn't that many weeks or months that people started seeing a change. She got depressed, and I think a lot of it had to do with being so different in a place where so much is the same (hair color, uniforms, etc.) Put simply, she was sensitive to people's word choices and correcting stereotypes and language. Eventually it beat her down, and she snapped...lost touch with reality, and basically had to go home in a straight-jacket. (Her family had to fly to Japan and move her as she wasn't able to do so on her own.)

Like you mentioned the ignorance on the black in Japan thread, ignorance on this issue is probably rampant to western LGBT eyes. Gay people are generally called "homo". Transgenders are called "new half". Mixed race children are called "half". None of these words is meant to demean, it's just ignorance, but it is demeaning to native English speaking ears.

In Japan my friend tried to be a rock, but the biggest and strongest rock can eventually be chipped away. As a foreigner in Japan, you have to be water, because in the end water is stronger than the rock, but it means you have to go with the flow and choose your battles wisely.

I do appreciate your apology and I am not trying to diminish what you are fighting for in any way. I do not know you or anything about you besides what you shared, but your comments reminded me of my friend, and I wish she had understood that Japan will change you more than you will change Japan.

Thanks, it's nice to hear this advice, and I will keep it in mind.

I've been called worst than "a gay" for being queer. I was just trying to alert you, let you know in a kind way before you offended someone. It's not a bad thing to learn something new. That's the approach I take when it comes to going to any new country, not only Japan. Going to college in NY was my first time living in the USA. I spent a summer in Sendai (though I wasn't openly gay then.) In both places, I learned many new things about different cultures, and I tried to exchange knowledge by teaching. I want to go to other countries so that I can teach about different cultures, and learn from them at the same time.

Yes, there are ignorant terms in Japan - the innocent kind of ignorant - and if I hear those terms I would say that those words are offensive in my country. If I ever see a golliwogg doll for sale, I would like to go to the manager and talk to them about the history of the doll. When I was in Sendai, someone asked me if I was related to Rihanna, because we're both from the West Indies. I told them no, not all people from the West Indies are related. That's just the approach I take, wanting to learn and teach.