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-   -   Mixed race children. (http://www.japanforum.com/forum/parenting-japan/23448-mixed-race-children.html)

Javen 09-29-2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyororin (Post 881528)
Umm... Last time I checked, all of Asia wasn't Japanese. If a Japanese person marries someone Korean, Chinese, or Filipino - the top nationalities for international marriages - they are still considered *international*. Any marriage where one partner is not a Japanese citizen is an international marriage.

wrong...those people are considered asian..they are not in the same rank as non-asian foreigners...so hence their children will be considered non-japanese as well

and those types of families are living in Japan temporarily...majority of them have already moved abroad to China, Korea, Philippines

Nyororin 09-29-2011 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881529)
wrong...those people are considered asian..they are not in the same rank as non-asian foreigners...so hence their children will be considered non-japanese as well

and those types of families are living in Japan temporarily...majority of them have already moved abroad to China, Korea, Philippines

That is if their children go around declaring that they aren't full Japanese. Which from what I have seen simply does not happen. I know several East Asian-Japanese couples, some with adult children, and I assure you - their children are considered Japanese. In fact, they barely seem to acknowledge any non-Japanese heritage at all in life.

Most international marriages between Japanese and other Asians stay in Japan. Japan tends to have the higher standard of living, and Asian wife-Japanese husband is the most common combination. (The husband's home country tends to have more weight than the wife's).

Along the same lines, most marriages between actual westerners are western husband-Japanese wife, so they leave Japan far more often than stay.

Either way though - the figures you quoted are for ALL international marriages in Japan. NOT for only non-Asian international marriages. I recall reading something like a 3000-4000 marriage range for westerner-Japanese marriages, with 75% moving outside of Japan within the first few years. A marriage registered in Japan doesn't mean a couple lives in Japan after the marriage.

You can go on and on about how I am wrong and a dreamy future of mixed Japanese-caucasian children, but the figures do not support it at all.

kenmei 09-29-2011 07:50 PM

13 weeks along :ywave:

Javen 10-02-2011 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyororin (Post 881532)
That is if their children go around declaring that they aren't full Japanese. Which from what I have seen simply does not happen. I know several East Asian-Japanese couples, some with adult children, and I assure you - their children are considered Japanese. In fact, they barely seem to acknowledge any non-Japanese heritage at all in life.

Most international marriages between Japanese and other Asians stay in Japan. Japan tends to have the higher standard of living, and Asian wife-Japanese husband is the most common combination. (The husband's home country tends to have more weight than the wife's).

Along the same lines, most marriages between actual westerners are western husband-Japanese wife, so they leave Japan far more often than stay.

Either way though - the figures you quoted are for ALL international marriages in Japan. NOT for only non-Asian international marriages. I recall reading something like a 3000-4000 marriage range for westerner-Japanese marriages, with 75% moving outside of Japan within the first few years. A marriage registered in Japan doesn't mean a couple lives in Japan after the marriage.

You can go on and on about how I am wrong and a dreamy future of mixed Japanese-caucasian children, but the figures do not support it at all.


read this...mixed race..as in non-asian..as in westerner
Quote:

TOKYO —
Japan has long been regarded as a homogenous culture: to look Japanese and to speak the language was to be Japanese. However, with one in 30 babies here now being born to mixed-race couples, these concepts are starting to change. It’s an issue that’s particularly pertinent for the children of such couples, who have been dealing with questions of national identity for their whole lives, and now a group of young “hafu” are exploring what their experiences mean for the future of Japan.

The Hafu Project: Exploring the question of what it means to be Japanese ‹ Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

Columbine 10-02-2011 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881869)
read this...mixed race..as in non-asian..as in westerner

you didn't even read the article you posted; mix race does not equal only westerners to the exclusion of other asian races.

"One of their subjects is David Yano, a half Ghanaian-" Ghana. Africa. Not western.

"-the Oi family—a Japanese father, Mexican mother and their two children—" Mexico. Western arguably, but not white like you seem to be implying.

"-will be debating the issue of whether to naturalize or not, and another will represent the most common demographic for hafu, an Asian mix, exploring what the issue of identity is like for someone who, on a superficial level at least, blends easily into Japanese society." This is EXACTLY what Nyororin was saying. The vast vast majority of mix-race children are half-japanese half-asian. They do not stand out from the crowd. 29 of those 30 babies will look Japanese, speak Japanese and know predominantly only Japanese culture. They're not going to be the harbingers of massive social change, save that the Japanese diet might start to include more kimchi.

On a different note I always think it's kind of interesting that people of mixed Ainu/Japanese heritage aren't usually counted as 'hafu'. Technically they do have mixed racial profiles.

Javen 10-02-2011 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbine (Post 881870)
you didn't even read the article you posted; mix race does not equal only westerners to the exclusion of other asian races.

"One of their subjects is David Yano, a half Ghanaian-" Ghana. Africa. Not western.

"-the Oi family—a Japanese father, Mexican mother and their two children—" Mexico. Western arguably, but not white like you seem to be implying.

"-will be debating the issue of whether to naturalize or not, and another will represent the most common demographic for hafu, an Asian mix, exploring what the issue of identity is like for someone who, on a superficial level at least, blends easily into Japanese society." This is EXACTLY what Nyororin was saying. The vast vast majority of mix-race children are half-japanese half-asian. They do not stand out from the crowd. 29 of those 30 babies will look Japanese, speak Japanese and know predominantly only Japanese culture. They're not going to be the harbingers of massive social change, save that the Japanese diet might start to include more kimchi.

On a different note I always think it's kind of interesting that people of mixed Ainu/Japanese heritage aren't usually counted as 'hafu'. Technically they do have mixed racial profiles.

Ghana and Mexico are western..
Ummm thats because Ainu are japanese

LOL korean women aren't exactly flocking to get married to japanese men, this ain't 1940s anymore....its actually the other way around....Asian women are migrating to Korea to get married...and western men and women are migrating to Japan to get married..

MMM 10-02-2011 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881906)
western men and women are migrating to Japan to get married..

Since when? Any stats to back this up?

Nyororin 10-02-2011 05:55 PM

It appears that he is cherry picking specific phrases and bits of information to form an image of Japan and mixing of races that just simply doesn't exist.
"Hafu", as they are called in the article, are a mix of Japanese and ANY ethnic background other than Japanese. It can be western, or it can be (as is overwhelmingly common) Asian.
A child born to a Japanese parent and a Chinese or Korean parent is going to just as much a "hafu" as one born to a Japanese parent and an American parent. The visibility is just going to be different - one will be obvious, and one will be invisible.

Quote:

LOL korean women aren't exactly flocking to get married to japanese men, this ain't 1940s anymore....its actually the other way around....Asian women are migrating to Korea to get married...and western men and women are migrating to Japan to get married..
Where you get this information is a mystery to me too. I would love to see your sources.
Right now, I see tons of Korean and Filipino women coming to Japan and trying to get married... And succeeding, it seems, as they are at the top of international marriages.
I can't speak for other Asian countries, but while there may be plenty of Korean idols popular in Japan - you certainly don't see Korea depicted as the place to go and find a husband.

As for western men and women migrating to Japan to get married... There are a fair number of western men who either want to have sex with Japanese/Asian women, and a fair number who want a "submissive Asian wife", but you don't see many of them actually moving to Japan. As for western women migrating to Japan to get married....:rolleyes:
It is a very exclusive club, to put it lightly.

Javen 10-02-2011 07:32 PM

Japan
Views from street on hafu (English Version) - YouTube

Korea
Vietnamese Mail Order Bride #6 (Korea) - YouTube
PARK FAMILY =) Korean-Filipino BLOOD - YouTube

JohnBraden 10-02-2011 08:05 PM

If I post something on YouTube, does it make it official, true, or statistically correct?

Columbine 10-03-2011 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881906)
Ghana and Mexico are western..
Ummm thats because Ainu are japanese

LOL korean women aren't exactly flocking to get married to japanese men, this ain't 1940s anymore....its actually the other way around....Asian women are migrating to Korea to get married...and western men and women are migrating to Japan to get married..

Still not the 'western' you were originally banging on about. And your last statement is totally wrong. Most immigrants come here for work or seeking a better way of life and marriage is incidental. The muslim community especially doesn't; many of them have wives at home.

The American/europeans who come here mostly come for the experience of living in a safe asian country on what is generally a glorified gap year or to study but they're certainly not considering marriage. Put it this way, I'm willing to bet I know a damn few more foreigners living in Japan right now than you do, and not a one of them has 'get married' as a goal here. Get laid, yes, but not married. And I know more than three couples who did get married here- but to other foreigners!

The Ainu are listed as 'Japanese' by nationality, but genetically they've got completely separate roots.

Javen 10-03-2011 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbine (Post 881926)
Still not the 'western' you were originally banging on about. And your last statement is totally wrong. Most immigrants come here for work or seeking a better way of life and marriage is incidental. The muslim community especially doesn't; many of them have wives at home.

The American/europeans who come here mostly come for the experience of living in a safe asian country on what is generally a glorified gap year or to study but they're certainly not considering marriage. Put it this way, I'm willing to bet I know a damn few more foreigners living in Japan right now than you do, and not a one of them has 'get married' as a goal here. Get laid, yes, but not married. And I know more than three couples who did get married here- but to other foreigners!

The Ainu are listed as 'Japanese' by nationality, but genetically they've got completely separate roots.

laid or marraige...both produce babies...

if we count in the number of westerners who boink japanese...must be the reason why 1 in 30 japanese babies are half westerner...thank you

Quote:

Half Caucasian (pref. American), half Japanese, born in Tokyo or Yokohama - somewhere with lots of other Halvsies. Grows up speaking both English and Japanese with no problems, goes to international school, surrounded by lots of other similar Halvsies. Very confident, good looking, of course doing a bit of modelling/TV work here and there. Does a great deal of traveling, and ends up getting a great-paying job in a high profile company
Is there such a thing as a stereotypical Halvsie? - Halvsie Forums

Nyororin 10-03-2011 09:51 AM

I have finally figured out exactly where this skewed idea is coming from.

Javen, you are misinterpreting two different terms as meaning the same thing when they do not.
You are reading the popular use of "half" and term "children from international marriages" as meaning the same thing.

"Half" in popular usage does indeed usually refer to mixed Japanese-western individuals... However, the "international marriage" referred to in the statistics is something else entirely. While it includes the parents of the "half" children, it also includes all the other much more numerous non-western international marriages.

The statistics are only talking about the international marriages. The sites talking about "halfs" are referring to children of a very specific subsection of those. Just as not every fruit tree is going to be an apple tree, every international marriage is not going to be western-Japanese... However, every apple is going to come from a fruit tree and every western-Japanese marriage is going to be an "international marriage".

This sort of warping of meanings isn`t really uncommon - but it is entirely incorrect.

In the end, the fact is that only a small number of the international marriages in the "1 in 30" figure are between Japanese and non-Asians. Only those can potentially produce half-western children. All the others will be invisible as Japanese-Asian "halfs".

Really, you should go to Japan and see just how many "half" children or western-Japanese couples you spot. It sure won`t even be anywhere vaguely close to "1 in 30" :rolleyes:, even in the most saturated expat areas in Tokyo.

But you are welcome to keep constructing this dreamlike vision of a Japan where half of every elementary school class is mixed, instead of the reality of maybe 1 in 1000, if you`re lucky.

Javen 10-03-2011 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyororin (Post 881942)
I have finally figured out exactly where this skewed idea is coming from.

Javen, you are misinterpreting two different terms as meaning the same thing when they do not.
You are reading the popular use of "half" and term "children from international marriages" as meaning the same thing.

"Half" in popular usage does indeed usually refer to mixed Japanese-western individuals... However, the "international marriage" referred to in the statistics is something else entirely. While it includes the parents of the "half" children, it also includes all the other much more numerous non-western international marriages.

The statistics are only talking about the international marriages. The sites talking about "halfs" are referring to children of a very specific subsection of those. Just as not every fruit tree is going to be an apple tree, every international marriage is not going to be western-Japanese... However, every apple is going to come from a fruit tree and every western-Japanese marriage is going to be an "international marriage".

This sort of warping of meanings isn`t really uncommon - but it is entirely incorrect.

In the end, the fact is that only a small number of the international marriages in the "1 in 30" figure are between Japanese and non-Asians. Only those can potentially produce half-western children. All the others will be invisible as Japanese-Asian "halfs".

Really, you should go to Japan and see just how many "half" children or western-Japanese couples you spot. It sure won`t even be anywhere vaguely close to "1 in 30" :rolleyes:, even in the most saturated expat areas in Tokyo.

But you are welcome to keep constructing this dreamlike vision of a Japan where half of every elementary school class is mixed, instead of the reality of maybe 1 in 1000, if you`re lucky.

I base my experience on my last trip to Hawaii...and occasional youtube videos of eurasian celebrities on japanese shows

if these japanese-asian hybrids are really numerous...then why are they called invisible?? hmmm

Nyororin 10-03-2011 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881946)
I base my experience on my last trip to Hawaii...and occasional youtube videos of eurasian celebrities on japanese shows

Hawaii is not Japan. The number of mixed race couples and children there has zero effect on Japan. Hawaii is really a very special situation regardless - I believe that it has one of the highest rates of racial mixing in the world for various reasons.

As for Japanese shows - Eurasian halfs are RARE. They are exotic and fascinating because they are so very rare. Exotic and fascinating things are just what television loves to use to get viewers. It has very little connection with real society - in fact, if they were common in normal life, the exotic appeal would be lost and you wouldn`t see them on tv.

Quote:

if these japanese-asian hybrids are really numerous...then why are they called invisible?? hmmm
Because they DO NOT LOOK DIFFERENT FROM JAPANESE.
This has been said several times in this thread. They LOOK like other Japanese, so they are not *visible*.

Imagine a room full of people born and raised in, say, the UK. While it will not be hard at all to spot a person who has one Asian parent, are you really going to be able to spot the one with one French parent?
There is enough variety in Japanese appearance that you are not going to be able to spot someone with one Korean or Chinese parent.
I would be seriously impressed if you could spot the one with two French parents or two Korean parents if they had been raised in the same country as the rest of the group.

Columbine 10-03-2011 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 881928)
laid or marraige...both produce babies...

if we count in the number of westerners who boink japanese...must be the reason why 1 in 30 japanese babies are half westerner...thank you

Is there such a thing as a stereotypical Halvsie? - Halvsie Forums

But not all guys who come to Japan get laid, or cause pregnancies even if they are getting laid because they use contraception. Not all marriages result in pregnancy. Some couples don't want kids and some can't have them. 1 in 30 Japanese babies are NOT half. Seriously, I live in Tokyo, I've lived in Osaka. I've taught in four different schools here and been to a massive multi-national university. You know how many evidently western-Japanese mixed race kids I've met? Two. Both belonging to my colleague who came to Japan to work and then married. and I've seen two others; one was half-Brazillian, one was half-korean. I had to be told the half-korean kid was mixed because it wasn't evident at all. Even the Japanese receptionist was surprised.

So out of the (no exaggeration) several hundreds of kids and adults I've encountered over the full course of a year and a half, in big city areas where, yes there are expats and quite a few foreigners living... two. Two kids. Not even 10. I have seen more Geisha, more sumo, more yakuza, more obese japanese people, more hookers and more monks than I have seen western halfs. I have met more people who have NEVER met a foreigner before than I have seen halfs.

tokusatsufan 10-03-2011 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyororin (Post 881950)
There is enough variety in Japanese appearance that you are not going to be able to spot someone with one Korean or Chinese parent.

Well Chinese maybe not,Koreans are fairly distinctive. I think if someone was half-Korean I'd tell they'd have slightly bigger eyes.

Javen 10-04-2011 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokusatsufan (Post 881993)
Well Chinese maybe not,Koreans are fairly distinctive. I think if someone was half-Korean I'd tell they'd have slightly bigger eyes.

yeah koreans got really good eyes:D usually anything mixed with korean will turn out good

Ryzorian 10-04-2011 03:26 AM

Jeez, you talk about it likes it's breeding cows or something.

MMM 10-04-2011 04:02 AM

The term "half" is a poorly evolved Japanese English word which some mixed race individuals find demeaning when used to describe them.

It is not the proper word to use when described someone of more than one race in English, so let's refrain from using it here.

Javen 10-04-2011 04:27 AM

okay this has nothing to do with japanese or anything...just wanted to ask you if you would consider this family to be multiracial??

MMM 10-04-2011 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 882004)
okay this has nothing to do with japanese or anything...just wanted to ask you if you would consider this family to be multiracial??

It's not up to me whether or not this family is multiracial. It is up to them.

SINRT 10-04-2011 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 882004)
okay this has nothing to do with japanese or anything...just wanted to ask you if you would consider this family to be multiracial??

I don't think what I or anyone else considers is very relevant, however to give the "conventional" answer which you are probably looking for: No, as the parents appear to both be East Asian and thus of a similar race. Conventionally speaking, multiracial usually implies widely different races (white and black), not just different nationalities, language groups or cultures (German and Belgian, Korean and Chinese).

Nyororin 10-04-2011 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokusatsufan (Post 881993)
Well Chinese maybe not,Koreans are fairly distinctive. I think if someone was half-Korean I'd tell they'd have slightly bigger eyes.

Except that they don`t.

There is a different in what is perceived as "in style" and popular in media... and actual features. There is a distinct set of features that are popular in Korean media, and a distinct set that is popular in Japanese media. These are slightly different. People who have the traits popular in their country`s media are selected and displayed in the media (or they try to emphasize the traits either through makeup, styling, or surgery).

The actual population, however, overlaps almost completely in appearance. Japanese and Koreans are very similar in ethnic background. I would say that China is much more varied in it`s ethnic groups, with some groups having very distinct appearances... Still though, as Japan has such wide variety in appearances - you would NOT be able to tell in the great majority of the cases.

Can you distinguish between someone Korean, born and raised in Korea, who follows Korean fashion and trends... And someone Japanese, born and raised in Japan, who follows Japanese fashion and trends? Yes. But can you distinguish between someone Korean who has been raised in Japan and who follows Japanese fashion and trends? Sorry, but I highly doubt it.

Fashion and makeup has a LOT more to do with the "differences" than people realize. This is what makes it easy to spot a 100% Japanese person who was raised in the US - the fashion, makeup, etc stands out.

Quote:

okay this has nothing to do with japanese or anything...just wanted to ask you if you would consider this family to be multiracial??
No. They might, however, be *international*.

Javen 10-04-2011 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyororin (Post 882025)
Except that they don`t.

There is a different in what is perceived as "in style" and popular in media... and actual features. There is a distinct set of features that are popular in Korean media, and a distinct set that is popular in Japanese media. These are slightly different. People who have the traits popular in their country`s media are selected and displayed in the media (or they try to emphasize the traits either through makeup, styling, or surgery).

The actual population, however, overlaps almost completely in appearance. Japanese and Koreans are very similar in ethnic background. I would say that China is much more varied in it`s ethnic groups, with some groups having very distinct appearances... Still though, as Japan has such wide variety in appearances - you would NOT be able to tell in the great majority of the cases.

Can you distinguish between someone Korean, born and raised in Korea, who follows Korean fashion and trends... And someone Japanese, born and raised in Japan, who follows Japanese fashion and trends? Yes. But can you distinguish between someone Korean who has been raised in Japan and who follows Japanese fashion and trends? Sorry, but I highly doubt it.

Fashion and makeup has a LOT more to do with the "differences" than people realize. This is what makes it easy to spot a 100% Japanese person who was raised in the US - the fashion, makeup, etc stands out.



No. They might, however, be *international*.

I agree I can't even tell the difference between brazilians and japanese

care to guess their ethnicities??

Columbine 10-05-2011 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 882046)
I agree I can't even tell the difference between brazilians and japanese

care to guess their ethnicities??

No idea. Philippino?

Javen 10-05-2011 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbine (Post 882079)
No idea. Philippino?

close enough...the woman is filipina the man is korean

Gerald446 10-11-2011 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 882046)
I agree I can't even tell the difference between brazilians and japanese

care to guess their ethnicities??

Ethnic groups: Japanese 98.5%, Koreans 0.5%, Chinese 0.4%, other 0.6%
Note: up to 230,000 Brazilians of Japanese origin migrated to Japan in the 1990s to work in industries; some have returned to Brazil (2004)
Definition: This entry provides an ordered listing of ethnic groups starting with the largest and normally includes the percent of total population. Source: CIA World Fact book - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of July 12, 2011
There are two major theories of ethnicity in the social sciences today. Those are the primordial perspective and the social mobilization perspective. The primordial perspective emphasizes primordial group ties associated with physical affinity, common language, common religion, and other cultural and historical commonalities as the basis of ethnicity. On the other hand, the social mobilization perspective sees ethnicity as an emergent concept in which ethnic connections are created and re-created in the context of adjustment in the host society
I suggest that ethnicity is the product of social relationships, which are based on common socio-cultural values.
“Ethnicity,” then, is like “society” and “culture” in that the notion is itself dynamic—continuously developing in the context of circumstance and discourse. The boundaries of ethnicity have become blurred and are created through people’s relationships. Ethnic boundaries are being constructed and reconstructed in diverse social environment. By taking a close look at diverse cases of creation and recreation of identities by Japanese transnational migrants, we can gain deeper insights into ethnicity and ethnic identity in the current global context.

Nippom 10-13-2011 04:17 AM

I have a mixed Japanese-American niece.

cridgit001 10-13-2011 06:10 PM

*Post Deleted*

Javen 10-16-2011 06:27 PM

does she look like a foreigner??




ryuurui 10-16-2011 07:09 PM

My wife and I are so mixed, that if we actually had any kids they would have been born with freaking rocket launcher on their back, speedo-machano-turbo-feet, goblin ramen shop detector, and a Swiss army knife in their pinkies.

ryuurui 10-16-2011 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javen (Post 883470)
does she look like a foreigner??




Foreigner to Japanese? Ya she does, and she looks good!

Javen 10-16-2011 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryuurui (Post 883476)
Foreigner to Japanese? Ya she does, and she looks good!


you think she could pass for korean??




technically she is half japanese...but I think she looks foreign

and I believe she should not be considered japanese... a westerner who knows the language and assimilated into japanese culture is more identifiable as japanese

ryuurui 10-16-2011 07:33 PM

Yeah, faster Korean, as she has wider face than Japanese. She looks to me like mixed with either Korean, Vietnamese, or southern Chinese, possibly even half Filipina. If I saw her on a street in Tokyo she would stand out as a non-Japanese.


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