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Tsuwabuki (Offline)
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08-05-2009, 09:38 PM

I will do so, as that is very much surprising. I don't see what business it is of anyone else's where my child was born, but that's the fierce multicultural egalitarian in me, I suppose. I would say American or Western, but I have met too many Americans in specific, and Westerners in general, that have the same attitude.

I have family members that have adopted and I once was present in a situation where my cousin was showing off a child she had adopted from Laos, I think, and some woman exclaimed, "Oh my she's so cute, almost like a real child."

Moron. :|
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08-05-2009, 09:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki View Post
I will do so, as that is very much surprising. I don't see what business it is of anyone else's where my child was born, but that's the fierce multicultural egalitarian in me, I suppose. I would say American or Western, but I have met too many Americans in specific, and Westerners in general, that have the same attitude.

I have family members that have adopted and I once was present in a situation where my cousin was showing off a child she had adopted from Laos, I think, and some woman exclaimed, "Oh my she's so cute, almost like a real child."

Moron. :|
There are idiots everywhere, to be sure, but it seems like this attitude about adoption is more...culturally institutionalized in Japan.

When I asked Japanese people if they would ever adopt a non-blood related child, 100% said no. Even if the child was Japanese? No. What if you couldn't have children? Then I would enjoy playing with nieces and nephews. The answers were so universal, that's why I think it is somehow ingrained in the Japanese culture. The idea of a non-blood person living in the home seemed too much. "You could never love an adopted child the same way as a blood child" was a phrase I heard from more than one Japanese mother.
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08-05-2009, 09:53 PM

O_o!!!

Okay, when I get back from Taipei, it'll be survey time. And this is why acclimation is not the same as cultural relativism. Such responses are incredibly hard for me to believe, and the last one is so flabbergastingly ridiculous that I'm not sure if I'm more shocked than I am appalled. That it is an attitude that Japan is far too modern not to give up. If it wasn't so heartbreakingly narrow-minded, I might be tempted to laugh.
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08-05-2009, 09:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki View Post
O_o!!!

Okay, when I get back from Taipei, it'll be survey time. And this is why acclimation is not the same as cultural relativism. Such responses are incredibly hard for me to believe, and the last one is so flabbergastingly ridiculous that I'm not sure if I'm more shocked than I am appalled. That it is an attitude that Japan is far too modern not to give up. If it wasn't so heartbreakingly narrow-minded, I might be tempted to laugh.
I HOPE that Japanese mothers believe that only because the idea of adoption is so foreign. Every (America) adopting mother we talked to said they fell in love with their baby or child within moments (fathers took a little longer to come around, but usually within a few weeks). My fear is that the idea of "blood" is so ingrained that Japanese mothers really couldn't love an adopted child the same as a blood child.
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08-06-2009, 12:51 AM

I agree that the attitude is there. People DO feel that way about adoption. I`m pretty sure you`ll get some interesting responses to your survey.

The thing is, Tsuwabuki isn`t Japanese. This makes a world of difference. Something that would be unacceptable in Japanese culture will most likely be "Well, they`re not Japanese so it`s different." When it comes to responses.
I have noticed that while virtually no one would consider adoption, there isn`t a strong dislike of the practice itself. It`s all a case of "I could never do it." - if someone else does, it`s often even thought of as noble on their part. But still, "I could never do it." People generally believe that it would be impossible for them to care about an adopted child in the same way that they could care about a biological child... BUT they usually don`t think that it would be impossible for anyone to do that.

When it comes to single parenting, well, everyone knows someone who only has one parent. Everyone knows someone who was raised by grandparents. Everyone knows someone who was raised by an aunt/uncle. If someone is going to bully based on this, it`s because they`re looking for something to use for bullying. If they don`t find it here, they will elsewhere.

ETA;
In addition to the idea of adoption - if you word it differently, like "taking in an heir", etc - the response suddenly makes a 180 turn. "Oh, that`s fine." "Oh, that`s normal." "Oh, my uncle is 'adopted'!" "My father was 'adopted'" - etc. Adoption for the sake of having a child isn`t mainstream, but making a child/young adult honorary family to produce an heir isn`t considered the same thing. There are even legally two types of adoption - one for the western style, and one for heir production.


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Last edited by Nyororin : 08-06-2009 at 12:54 AM.
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08-06-2009, 01:11 AM

I think you are right, Nyororin, that bullies are going to bully, regardless.

What happens to children in Japan that don't have parents or family?
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08-06-2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki View Post
I figure Nyororin will probably have to most information for me...

I just recently put my financial affairs in order, and I have about ¥4Million in the bank, I have a steady job here in Japan, I rarely use all of my income on a monthly basis and have a two bedroom apartment for just me. Things are looking good for starting a family...

Except, I have no interest in a spousal relationship any time soon. I am not even looking. I am, however, seriously thinking of adopting a child in the next few years. I firmly believe that with my income level, my household affairs in order, and my general responsibility, that I could be a good single parent.

I realise that Nyororin and I have spoken in the past about the difficulty in obtaining an adoption of a Japanese national, but I have no intention of leaving Japan. I just got back from my first visit to the US in nearly two years, and honestly... that place was weird. More importantly, it was not home. I didn't expect to feel so strongly, but I did.

Instead I was thinking of adopting from the PRC or the ROC, probably the ROC (Taiwan), because I believe I already meet the requirements on the ROC side (I am fairly certain I would meet the US Department of State requirements as well). And while gaining US citizenship for my child is a very simple matter according to State's website, I am concerned about what regulations I would need to deal with in regards to having a dependent child in Japan.

I would want to child to attend Japanese schools, but the language at home would be English. However, this depends largely on the rate of the child's acquisition of Mandarin, Taiwanese, or Hakka.

Thoughts?
I just don't think it would be fair to take a child away from it's country of birth and raise it within a discriminating and conflicting society like Japan.

As for adopting a Japanese child within Japan as a foreigner, that sounds like you may need to cross two many a bridge for a long time to have the slightest chance of being "successful".

All in all, you are certainly heading into a big change in life if you are adoption successful and wish you all the best.


Cheers - Oz
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Tsuwabuki (Offline)
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08-06-2009, 10:08 PM

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Originally Posted by ozkai View Post
I just don't think it would be fair to take a child away from it's country of birth and raise it within a discriminating and conflicting society like Japan.
And America is not discriminating and conflicting in its own unique ways? If you think being adopted period in America is any kind of cake walk for child, or for that matter, parent, trust me, I have news for you...

As for the beginning clause of that sentence, it's not fair to rescue a child from being unwanted and abandoned and provided for by a parent who genuinely cares about his or her well-being?

Right now my ability to provide for a child is tied to having an established life, my established life is in Japan.

Quote:
As for adopting a Japanese child within Japan as a foreigner, that sounds like you may need to cross two many a bridge for a long time to have the slightest chance of being "successful".
I think it was fairly clear that adoption in Japan simply doesn't happen, and would not to a single parent non-citizen.

Quote:
All in all, you are certainly heading into a big change in life if you are adoption successful and wish you all the best.
Thank you, although at this point it is all just a concept, not even really a plan. However, it is something that I want to do eventually. I want a child, always have, but it my case, I'm in no hurry to get married so I can have kids.
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08-08-2009, 12:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki View Post
And America is not discriminating and conflicting in its own unique ways? If you think being adopted period in America is any kind of cake walk for child, or for that matter, parent, trust me, I have news for you...

As for the beginning clause of that sentence, it's not fair to rescue a child from being unwanted and abandoned and provided for by a parent who genuinely cares about his or her well-being?

Right now my ability to provide for a child is tied to having an established life, my established life is in Japan.



I think it was fairly clear that adoption in Japan simply doesn't happen, and would not to a single parent non-citizen.


Thank you, although at this point it is all just a concept, not even really a plan. However, it is something that I want to do eventually. I want a child, always have, but it my case, I'm in no hurry to get married so I can have kids.
I'm sorry? Not being a cake walk in comparison to where or what? You have news for us? What news do you have to bring when you are "exploring a concept , not even really a plan" ??

I think Ozkai was stating that is you were to adopt a American child at 6 or younger, he would be placed into foreign environment and be singled out because he/she is adopted. You have no idea how kids with step / divorced / missing / adopted parents are treated in school and in life in Japan (by another child OR Adult) despite what you believe you see here in there as a teacher. Add being foreigner in there and you have the possibility of a bad time for the child. Plus add in the stress of language (outside of school) and a foreign society and culture would ostracize the child.

Rescuing a child from having no parents to live in a foreign world with also most likely being a stressful unhappy world ROBS the child of having the chance to be adopted by a local mother and father.

The reason you would be denied adoption is simple: a single parent bringing up a child that has to function in a foreign society than the one he or she has known since birth to a single foreign parent. It isn't going to happen in Japan. Believe all the posts you read here about how impossible your "concept".

And yes when it comes down to it, Japanese (like other Asian cultures) would do almost anything to have a non-blood related child. A Japanese married to an Foreign male I know has stated that she is against adopting because it is a non-blood child - flat out against it. She would consider a donor egg though as the blood relation between her husband and child would exist. She said the donor egg would not have to be Japanese. I say donor egg because she is not able to conceive - this should be proof enough.

In regards to one of your previous post on this topic. you are correct in thinking your income and high standard of living is not transferable to all parts of the country. The best schools for the child would be in the city (academic wise), and in general 4 million in the bank would not be enough for a rainy day.

It is an old Japanese mindset, even more prominent in Korea, that is the child actual family tree is not known, then the child is unknown. This is why in Japan and again more so in Korea that it is truly difficult for a adopted child to marry into another family if it is known that he or she is adopted. Since the root of the child are unknown the family that the son/daughter would marry into would break their family tree.

Old concept... but surprisingly very very alive.

Also, lay off the "America is discriminating" deal... sorry you've had a rough go in the states but you should not be surprised that the opinions of many nations are same in many countries beliefs. Discrimination is everywhere, and I believe Japan has just as much as any other nation... maybe in different forms or in different places, but there just the same.

You say:
"I would say American or Western, but I have met too many Americans in specific, and Westerners in general, that have the same attitude.

I have family members that have adopted and I once was present in a situation where my cousin was showing off a child she had adopted from Laos, I think, and some woman exclaimed, "Oh my she's so cute, almost like a real child."
Moron. :|
"

Also I can find one Japanese or whatever country say something stupid or have a stupid belief just the same as your quote.
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Tsuwabuki (Offline)
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08-08-2009, 01:56 AM

This post, along with the others elsewhere you have posted, seem to have a very emotional tone. I won't characterise it, yet, as angry, but I am reading this with a fair amount of hostility. Am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clintjm View Post
I'm sorry? Not being a cake walk in comparison to where or what? You have news for us? What news do you have to bring when you are "exploring a concept , not even really a plan" ??
It's a figure of speech. I'm not sure why the use of a normal figure of speech would have you this riled up. I was simply saying adoption is a very difficult process, a long process, and one that is going to be difficult and long regardless of the combination of nationalities, ethnicities, and residencies. The idea that adoption of an American in America by an American living in America is somehow substantially easier and not fraught with difficulties of its own is not, in my opinion, a well-researched view.

Quote:
I think Ozkai was stating that is you were to adopt a American child at 6 or younger, he would be placed into foreign environment and be singled out because he/she is adopted. You have no idea how kids with step / divorced / missing / adopted parents are treated in school and in life in Japan (by another child OR Adult) despite what you believe you see here in there as a teacher. Add being foreigner in there and you have the possibility of a bad time for the child. Plus add in the stress of language (outside of school) and a foreign society and culture would ostracize the child.
I have some idea. I do not feel I have enough of an idea. I do not plan to initiate any plan until I have done a lot of research. Adoption can take as long as a year or more, and preparation for it can, and should, take longer. Of course, I would plan to speak to my coworkers, my neighbors, my friends who are married and have children, before I make any decision. These are the beginning steps. I asked for thoughts because I want to present a serious topic on adoption to the community, but I am not looking for advice from most of the individuals on this community, because, no offense intended, most of the individuals here are not capable of offering experiences that are actually relevant. Nyororin is a definite exception. This doesn't mean I am not interested in others' thoughts.

My friends from high school and college are getting married and having children. I do not feel I am at an age where my interest in adoption has to be a detailed plan for it to be taken seriously. I say this is a concept because I feel that I am ready to start the research and preparation period, it won't become a plan, if it does become a plan, until I feel I have done that. If your criticism is that I am moving too fast, I think you have seriously misread me.

Quote:
Rescuing a child from having no parents to live in a foreign world with also most likely being a stressful unhappy world ROBS the child of having the chance to be adopted by a local mother and father.
I've rewritten my response to this three times, because I don't want to come off as hostile. I think this argument is seriously flawed. I suppose it's a philosophical disagreement, but I feel certain adoption is better than a possible future adoption, as long as the quality of the adopting parents is high. Is it possible high quality local parents might come along later? Yes. It is also possible that low quality local parents might come along later. Most depressingly, it is possible for the child to be lost in the system.

How you can suggest that being raised in a country other than the origin country is "most likely" a "stressful unhappy" life, I don't know. You state it, but you don't offer an evidence for this.

Quote:
The reason you would be denied adoption is simple: a single parent bringing up a child that has to function in a foreign society than the one he or she has known since birth to a single foreign parent. It isn't going to happen in Japan. Believe all the posts you read here about how impossible your "concept".
...Are you even fully reading this thread? This paragraph isn't even directed at me. It would be better placed inside the "Child Adoption" thread and directed at the individuals who think adoption is the same as having a pet or a dolfie. And your points aren't entirely, or even mostly, valid.

Quote:
And yes when it comes down to it, Japanese (like other Asian cultures) would do almost anything to have a non-blood related child. A Japanese married to an Foreign male I know has stated that she is against adopting because it is a non-blood child - flat out against it. She would consider a donor egg though as the blood relation between her husband and child would exist. She said the donor egg would not have to be Japanese. I say donor egg because she is not able to conceive - this should be proof enough.
I'm not following this. I think you missed some negating phrases or particles. You seem to be backing up MMM's posts, but while I said it was shocking, I never said I failed to believe him.

Quote:
In regards to one of your previous post on this topic. you are correct in thinking your income and high standard of living is not transferable to all parts of the country. The best schools for the child would be in the city (academic wise), and in general 4 million in the bank would not be enough for a rainy day.
I make more and have more in savings than my friends with biological children of their own. And on the contrary, ¥4million yen is the equivalent of $40,000, and is more than enough for me to go an entire year without employment. I have no debts, only assets. No mortgage, no car payment, no credit cards. So, I disagree. I think I do indeed have enough for a rainy day, in the area I live in. I also just extended my visa last Monday. If I did lose my job, I would easily be able to pay the bills while I found another one: and as an English teacher in Japan with my experience, I would find one making almost as much as I do now. My bills might increase, and my standard of living might drop, but $40K is a pretty serious cushion to have, and this especially true for someone of my age.

Quote:
It is an old Japanese mindset, even more prominent in Korea, that is the child actual family tree is not known, then the child is unknown. This is why in Japan and again more so in Korea that it is truly difficult for a adopted child to marry into another family if it is known that he or she is adopted. Since the root of the child are unknown the family that the son/daughter would marry into would break their family tree.
I'm aware of this, and know it, through personal experience to be true, but my child would be an American, and not subject to the same rules, just as I myself am not subject to those rules if I were to get married.

Quote:
Also, lay off the "America is discriminating" deal... sorry you've had a rough go in the states but you should not be surprised that the opinions of many nations are same in many countries beliefs. Discrimination is everywhere, and I believe Japan has just as much as any other nation... maybe in different forms or in different places, but there just the same.
Please read more closely.

If you're going to make references to several posts, then you really need to make sure you are aware of all the posts. I have also stated I will never give up US citizenship, and that I have actually become prouder of America than I was when I lived there. When I left America, I did not have an opinion either way. Now I see the amount of good America has done in the world, and that makes me quite proud to be an American. And you don't even want to get me started on how awesome Texas is.

Now, I have said that going back to America was weird, and I suffered reverse culture shock, and that I wouldn't want to live there while things are going well in Japan, and they aren't going well there. These have to do mostly with political and economic realities, and if Congress and President Obama can really do the things they promised, even only halfway, my view might change. Japan has public health care that works, it has public transportation. When America has these things too, then maybe I will move back.

You and I agree that discrimination is everywhere, as I have said elsewhere, we agree. This was my point. Here and elsewhere discrimination is very much alive. My point was that, alone, is not the reason to dismiss me so glibly.

Quote:
You say:
"I would say American or Western, but I have met too many Americans in specific, and Westerners in general, that have the same attitude.

I have family members that have adopted and I once was present in a situation where my cousin was showing off a child she had adopted from Laos, I think, and some woman exclaimed, "Oh my she's so cute, almost like a real child."
Moron. :|
"

Also I can find one Japanese or whatever country say something stupid or have a stupid belief just the same as your quote.
You are not reading. You are clearly skimming, getting riled up for no reason, and going off half-cocked.

MMM already offered those beliefs, and the above was my response to it.

Last edited by Tsuwabuki : 08-08-2009 at 02:06 AM.
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