Bringing an Adopted Child into Japan

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

It is necessary to back up what you say with evidence. Personal experiences are a start, but since I have personal experiences as well, that means you'll need to pair them with other forms of evidence. Articles, statistics, websites, scholarly papers. You make a lot of claims, but you do not back them up.

You yourself said you like to argue for the sake of being ridiculous. If that's because you enjoy seeing the reactions you get, then guess what, you're a troll.

I must be pushing your ego here...
Sorry didn't know Articles, statistics, websites, scholarly papers were a requirement for this forum... I'll get right to it professor..

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I've taken child and adolescent psychology. This is a perfect example of where you make a pretty serious claim, and you need to back it up.

Was that the 3 or 4 credit course? Well I'm going to have to see your report card because you obviously failed the course miserably by posting such a ridiculous idea in this thread.

How can you pass through a doorway with a head of that size. The girls must love that big brain of yours.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Do you have any published work to use as evidence? If you can provide literature where it suggests this will have a permanent, detrimental effect on the child, please provide it. I have yet to see anything that suggests this, nor have I seen it in my personal experiences. Therefore, as above, until you offer me a body of evidence, I am free to reject your assertions as warrantless and unjustified.

I don't need published works to show what others have presented in this thread besides me. This isn't a large forum, lucky for you, or I'm sure you'd have more of response.
I'm sure most have not bothered to post a reply to a ridiculous plan. I replied because it hit a nerve with me. You say your younger highschool chums are too young to have children as a couple yet you come up with this mad plan.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

The "jackass" was meant to match your absurd tone with my own, hence the rolling eyes. You started using the informal tone, I just replied in it.

No names were presented until "Jackass" so here is a tounge sticking out

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You provide numbers without citation. Even if the default rate is 18%, or 20% if it has grown slightly, that is still 1 in 5 Americans. I wasn't talking about default anyway, I was talking about getting paid off. And you haven't shown those are real numbers yet. Evidence without source is just as bad as no evidence at all.

Oh my goodness do I need to site things now... goto Google and put in American College Student loan default rate ... you'll get what you need.

Whatever man... here is two thumbs up for you paying off your student loan. Good job... Good job. You are very responsible. vvvery responsible

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Make claim, offer no evidence. Make claim, offer no evidence. Seems to be your SOP. You also have said several things I never did. From the guidelines on the State website there does not to be an issue that would match what you describe. I can meet all of the qualifications, as I understand them. If I do not understand them, well, that will be up to a State official to explain that to me. Why? Because that official can back up what he or she will explain with evidence.

Guidelines only get you in the door.
Anyway I've said my peace... Go for it.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I didn't ask for advice, I asked for thoughts. I said in the very first line that I felt Nyororin was the possible, and probably the only, exception.

Advice.. thoughts... same thing.
Don't post in a public forum asking for "thoughts" if you don't want them.. I mean this is a public forum.. right?

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I am surprised every time I do so, thinking that eventually, maybe, people who are otherwise quite intelligent may stop thinking that "rugged individualism" can save everyone.

I was 23, and no, not all the answers, but enough to know that people who claim to be conservatives are not really fiscally conservative, and if America is going to spend under a political group, I'd rather it be for reasons I agree with.

That is what America was built on and the "entitled" crowd you support is what is destroying it.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

When it is possible for me to make a living in America, comfortably, I will return. The world is more than just the US, for someone who claims to have traveled extensively, you should know. So if the benefits I receive for my employment in Japan are better than the benefits I would receive in America, it is only economically sensical to move. Aren't you conservatives all for free trade and unrestricted capitalism, a la the invisible hand. In fact, didn't Reaganomics claim the be the return of Adam Smith to his rightful place? You of all people should be applauding my decision based on capitalist principles.
Another Reagan moment... There you go again. There no "given facts" here, no premises that we have accepted. If you are going to make a claim like that, you must back it up with evidence if it is to be believed. I am quite aware of the idea of the "best interest of the child" and I don't see, looking at any of the guidelines I have looked at, why I should be denied.

The world is much more than the US.. never said otherwise. But not what you make it out to be.

If you are saying that at 26, with college degree you can't QUOTE Make a living comfortably END QUOTE in the US then there really is something wrong with the world - obviously you were in Japan before the recession took hold. Maybe your idea of comfortable is different than everyone elses. Maybe there isn't any high paying ESL English teaching job in the US.

Can I quote "Mr Gorbacheve, tear down this wall" now?

Nothing wrong with working in Japan.. if its working for you absolutely fabulous and the benefits are more than just job related... no debate there.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

You make assumption after assumption after assumption. I went to school to be an English teacher. Philosophy is just a hobby. Teaching is my career. I've also said that numerous times in other posts. I'm already doing what I want to do in life. Getting an MA will allow me to pursue teaching jobs that double my income. Most require just an MA, no specific one, and thus I am considering philosophy because I enjoy it.

Sorry I hadn't read all the post in this forum posted by you... sooo sorry. Just read the two where I replied.
You've proven my previous ivory tower statement is even more true now.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

If you were really interested in debate, you would offer unemotional arguments with evidence. You do not. Therefore, I judge that I am feeding a troll.

Trust me... I'm far from foaming at the mouth here... I'm watching a movie, glancing a novel and typing a reply with one hand to make it fair.

Glad you are making a good living there.. it is commindable.. plus if English Teaching is really want you want to do as career (a career is field of work you have chosen for life).. then more power to you.

Just try to stay away from what you are plan in this thread for adopting and adopt after you have found the other parent and/or have one on your own and making enough money to support the child. Its only fair to the child.


Oh and by the way... it was sweet of you to post a reply for Nyororin...

So sweet.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I don`t recall Tsuwabuki ever saying he was interested in adopting from the US. I answered his inquiry under the assumption that he was not looking into adoption from the US, but rather from the countries he actually listed; PRC and ROC. If he is able to adopt a child, then there should be no issue with bringing the child into Japan as a dependent if it below 6. This is a fact. He also stated that he wasn`t going to go out and do this tomorrow - he says "next few years" in the first post. If it were a futile effort to even consider it, wouldn`t it be best to know this before investing time or money in the endeavor? I don`t believe it is my or your place to judge someone, particularly based on a simple question asked on a forum.

uhhh.. Public forum, public opinions... So yes... yes I can judge...

Oh I read the part about in the next couple of years when he spoke up and said, "this is only a plan/concept" to the poster who replied "why bring a child into a discriminating society as Japan"

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Even though it is clear that Tsuwabuki is not asking about an adoption of a child from the US, I am curious. How, may I ask, would it be negligent to allow someone who lives outside or has plans to live outside the US to adopt a child? You have mentioned discrimination issues, and culture/language issues... but how is that a different situation than bringing a child from outside the US into the US? International adoptions are far from unheard of, and I assure you the stress is the same for the child no matter where they move to. In my opinion, the fact that a child is "adopted" will make no difference in Japan. The fact that they`re not Japanese will totally outweigh this. I highly doubt that adoption itself will ever be an issue if the child is not Japanese.
In the case of a child from another Asian country, I would imagine it would be slightly LESS stressful as the chances of them fitting in with everyone would be raised. The age *limit* is 6, it`s not a set age for adoption. A child adopted at 1 to 3 is unlikely to experience much of a language/culture clash.

Negligent in that fact that he is adopting as a single parent and taking the child into a foreign environment. In Japan is a documented fact that discrimination of children by other children And Adults because they are different by race, culture, having only one parent, or have one of the parents not be their blood parents or a combination of these.

The difference is he is an american citizen. The board would fail him based on the fact they are unable to determine if the well being of the child is being looked after in a foreign country that they have no pull in.

Yes I know its six as stated in this thread.

It wouldn't be stressful just from the dynamics of the ijime in japan.

Japanese in general do not like other Asians in general. That of course is not EVERY Japanese but it is the mindset... so you are WAY off there...


This is not the case all the time true... but it does happen and it happens ENOUGH.

Its true some "halves" do get a certain extra popularity through their life in Japan, but not the case all the time... Being different can be applauded in Japan under the right circumstances.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You seem to make a point of talking about things in a negative way. From what I can see, it looks more like you "tolerate" Japan at best.

You see it as negative because again its not being written as 100% peaches and cream.

Now who is making assumptions? Yes I only tolerate my family and friends who are Japanese...

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I`m curious where you get the idea that I am some young kid in Japan for a couple years...?

Okay I know its rude to ask a lady her age... but how old are you my dear? I really don't care, no need to post if don't feel like it.

I mean you write like a youngster so I just assumed...

Doesn't matter to me really..

Does it bother you that I think/thought that?

Originally Posted by Nyororin

The problem isn`t with pointing out that there are negative things in Japan. The problem is with pointing them out as if they`re the ONLY things in Japan. Not everyone is going to leap to discriminate - that is, in my experience, a very VERY small minority.

Oh I agree... but posting about the bringing an adopted child into Japan left me little to compliment Japan... I will make some ice cream sundae posts on Japan later... this isn't the thread for my dear.


Well at least you admit there is a small minority.. unlike Napoleon

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Presenting Japan as a place where there is little other than discrimination and racism is no different than presenting it as a perfect paradise. Both are wrong.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I haven`t commented on US issues, so will not reply to this bit.

Excellant.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Please re-read the first post. You will see that it isn`t, which is apparently leading to a lot of misunderstanding in this thread.

Well then I guess you better ask Mr. Brain to learn how to post / explain so there won't be.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

That is really unfortunate, but in my experiences if you know where to look and the right path to take - it`s no harder than for a Japanese person. Adoption is hard in Japan. It has nothing to do with your race. Talk to Japanese who have tried to adopt, and you`ll find 10, 20, 30 failed attempts and fear that the guardian will change their mind up until the very day that things are transferred legally. Japan simply does not have an adoption infrastructure. Plan to spend 2 to 5 years working with different facilities and then with guardians to actually get anywhere.

Adoption in Japan: It has plenty to do with your race... and that I can tell you from personal experience. Again not in any written rules but "unofficially" it does... words straight from the administrator.

"if you know where to look and the right path" is ridiculous

There isn't a national infrastructure but the process is realtively the same.

2 to 5 years and then no guarentees is something I can agree on. 2 is really pushing it.
But for me being a foreigner ...it will never happen... aside from them writing it in blood and stamping a hanko to the fact...

I think tsuwabuki can post for himself when he is not going over his credientials, how responsible he is and his accomplishments...

but feel free to post about how wrong I am to post my opinions in a negative way.

Cheers.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

uhhh.. Public forum, public opinions... So yes... yes I can judge...

Oh I read the part about in the next couple of years when he spoke up and said, "this is only a plan/concept" to the poster who replied "why bring a child into a discriminating society as Japan"

I guess I was understanding his message in a different way than you have. To me, it appeared he was asking whether bringing an adopted child into Japan was a possibility. Not whether he would be a good parent, or whether any country would allow him to adopt a child. I leave that judgement up to those who actually make those decisions.
If it were impossible to bring an adopted child into Japan, it would be a moot point from day one.

Negligent in that fact that he is adopting as a single parent and taking the child into a foreign environment.

I can`t say I have a high opinion of the choice to raise a child as a single parent. Especially at an age where it is completely and totally possible that he will decide to have a relationship later on. A child could (99% chance) seriously complicate that.
But - if he is totally serious about not being interested in a relationship, marriage, or the problems adopted a child before that could bring... I still see it as better for a child to have one parent than NO parents. Any adopted child will be entering a "foreign" environment, even if adopted in their own country.

In Japan is a documented fact that discrimination of children by other children And Adults because they are different by race, culture, having only one parent, or have one of the parents not be their blood parents or a combination of these.

You can say the same thing about most other countries too... In fact, I think it would be very hard to find a country where this does not happen. Does such a perfect place even exist??
That reasoning would still apply to any non-Japanese child in Japan. Is it negligent or irresponsible to bring or have a biological child into Japan if you are not Japanese?

The difference is he is an american citizen. The board would fail him based on the fact they are unable to determine if the well being of the child is being looked after in a foreign country that they have no pull in.

This may be true. I don`t know. If they judge him unsuitable to be an adoptive parent, then they do. All I know is that IF he were able to adopt, he could indeed bring the child into Japan as a dependent if they are under 6.

It wouldn't be stressful just from the dynamics of the ijime in japan.

You seem to be taking ijime as a given. That it will DEFINITELY happen no matter what. I don`t believe that`s the case, unless we count pretty much every childhood issue as "ijime". But if we do so, every child out there is going to have been bullied as a child.

Japanese in general do not like other Asians in general. That of course is not EVERY Japanese but it is the mindset... so you are WAY off there...

If they are advertising the fact that they are not Japanese, perhaps so. But if they are just THERE, yes - I do believe that I am correct. It`s a matter of appearance. If they look Japanese enough, then they will pass as Japanese if they have been in Japan long enough and have picked up the typical Japanese mannerisms.

You see it as negative because again its not being written as 100% peaches and cream.

No, I see it as so because you have yet to write anything that is not mostly negative. When you have written things that do not emphasis negative aspects, or do not sound like you are picking a fight (as your exchanges with Tsuwabuki sound) I may change my opinion.

Now who is making assumptions? Yes I only tolerate my family and friends who are Japanese...

Family and friends are people, individuals. Not a country or culture. I never said you hated Japanese *people*.

Okay I know its rude to ask a lady her age... but how old are you my dear? I really don't care, no need to post if don't feel like it.

I mean you write like a youngster so I just assumed...

Doesn't matter to me really..

You apparently perceive my writing to be that of a "youngster" because it doesn`t agree with you. I went to part of high school, attended and graduated university in Japan, have been married (in Japan, to a Japanese citizen) for 8 years, have a child with lifelong disabilities, and have medical issues preventing me from having another if I don`t want the same thing to happen. Oh, and I`m not an English teacher either. Right now, I`m unemplyed because of that child with disabilities thing going on - but before that I was a translator/interpreter.

Does it bother you that I think/thought that?

I just find it interesting that you seem to think it would be natural for someone to share your feelings toward Japan if they`d actually lived here for any significant amount of time.
How long do you consider "long enough"?

Adoption in Japan: It has plenty to do with your race... and that I can tell you from personal experience. Again not in any written rules but "unofficially" it does... words straight from the administrator.

Then that is an issue with the administrator. I`ve experienced nothing but positive responses from any inquiries. We made the choice not to go ahead with adoption at this specific point simply because of issues with our biological child.

"if you know where to look and the right path" is ridiculous

There isn't a national infrastructure but the process is realtively the same.

Legally, it isn`t.

2 to 5 years and then no guarentees is something I can agree on. 2 is really pushing it.

Then look outside Japan. That is how long all the adoptive parents (Japanese) I have encountered have needed to wait. I`ve never heard of anyone receiving a child before 3 or 4.

But for me being a foreigner ...it will never happen... aside from them writing it in blood and stamping a hanko to the fact...

I guess all those "international" couples I know who adopted a child in Japan must not be real then. I mean, they shouldn`t have been able to do it because one of them was a foreigner, right? I`m really sad to hear you`re ready to simply give up because of the response of one administrator. But it is your choice, I suppose.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I guess I was understanding his message in a different way than you have. To me, it appeared he was asking whether bringing an adopted child into Japan was a possibility. Not whether he would be a good parent, or whether any country would allow him to adopt a child. I leave that judgement up to those who actually make those decisions.
If it were impossible to bring an adopted child into Japan, it would be a moot point from day one.

No argument here.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I can`t say I have a high opinion of the choice to raise a child as a single parent. Especially at an age where it is completely and totally possible that he will decide to have a relationship later on. A child could (99% chance) seriously complicate that.
But - if he is totally serious about not being interested in a relationship, marriage, or the problems adopted a child before that could bring... I still see it as better for a child to have one parent than NO parents. Any adopted child will be entering a "foreign" environment, even if adopted in their own country.

Your foreign environment excludes the language, culture, societal and physically looking different than everyone else. That adds "a little" more stress I would say.

There are reasons "one parent" adoptions are more difficult to do.

But I agree this is NOT a death sentence for the child, in fact its a very good experience to grow up in Japan... however the good with the bad is the label being placed on a child in the imaginary situation this thread has setup.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You can say the same thing about most other countries too... In fact, I think it would be very hard to find a country where this does not happen. Does such a perfect place even exist?? That reasoning would still apply to any non-Japanese child in Japan.

This is true, but it is amplified CONSIDERABLY in Japan.
And yes that reason would apply to any non-Japanese child in Japan PLUS if the fact is known by society that the child is adopted and / or single parent.

Japanese place blood related parents and family history on a much higher pedistal than the western world.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Is it negligent or irresponsible to bring or have a biological child into Japan if you are not Japanese?

Nope. Never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

This may be true. I don`t know. If they judge him unsuitable to be an adoptive parent, then they do. All I know is that IF he were able to adopt, he could indeed bring the child into Japan as a dependent if they are under 6.

No argument... never was on this.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You seem to be taking ijime as a given. That it will DEFINITELY happen no matter what. I don`t believe that`s the case, unless we count pretty much every childhood issue as "ijime". But if we do so, every child out there is going to have been bullied as a child.

Given cases single parent adopted child that is not Japanese living in Japan... you couldn't paint a bigger target on him or her.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

If they are advertising the fact that they are not Japanese, perhaps so. But if they are just THERE, yes - I do believe that I am correct. It`s a matter of appearance. If they look Japanese enough, then they will pass as Japanese if they have been in Japan long enough and have picked up the typical Japanese mannerisms.

I agree with you to an extent... but eventually something gives... Gossip of children is ruthless. Physical traits... A shade darker skin , a different tint of hair .... kids find these things like no other.... things the non-japanese learns from their parents come through.


I'm sorry but most native Japanese can pick out a non-japanese asain given a long enough period of time. It doesn't matter is that Asain has lived their for 90% of their life.
There are exceptions I know.. but this is the majority of the time.


To the other side of this: I see in books, tv programs, articles, even dramas that Japan is recognizing these problems of discrimination based on these traits... so I have hope that public gets educated more and it becomes a trend and learned little good comes from this.
It will be lessened and become more like America, but just like America racism still exists.

Blood relatives and knowing the family tree will always be an issue in Asia and Japan.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

No, I see it as so because you have yet to write anything that is not mostly negative. When you have written things that do not emphasis negative aspects, or do not sound like you are picking a fight (as your exchanges with Tsuwabuki sound) I may change my opinion.

Frankly this thread especially nor the other thread do not have the subject of painting Japan in a positive light. And yes I typed up to Tsuwabuki because frankly in both threads the references he made to all of USA and "westerners" was derogitory to say the least (as in post #11 of this thread) and enough in the other thread "whats is like" so even post #33 agrees with Tsuwabuki "yes i dont like america and i live there".
He has stated why he doesn't like the condition of the USA in comparison of Rural Kyoto a little too much for my taste...

So I believe negative aspects is the context of the discussion in this thread. Again I'll post some happy ones in the proper group and thread when appropriate..

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Family and friends are people, individuals. Not a country or culture. I never said you hated Japanese *people*.

I beg to differ. What is a culture or society without their people?
To me that is exactly what you wrote.

To note: The word hate never entered this thread until you posted it.. so lets be careful throwing that word around in the thread.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

You apparently perceive my writing to be that of a "youngster" because it doesn`t agree with you.

I think that goes hand in hand.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I went to part of high school, attended and graduated university in Japan, have been married (in Japan, to a Japanese citizen) for 8 years, have a child with lifelong disabilities, and have medical issues preventing me from having another if I don`t want the same thing to happen. Oh, and I`m not an English teacher either. Right now, I`m unemplyed because of that child with disabilities thing going on - but before that I was a translator/interpreter.

On a very serious note I'm am very sorry to read this. I can only try to understand the struggles you , your husband and your child face because of the medical issues.

I wish only the best for your family in having additional child if you decide to do so, or the so said discussion of adoption. This is not pitty or anything else of the sort. I live in a very similar situation as far as us having a child of our own.

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I just find it interesting that you seem to think it would be natural for someone to share your feelings toward Japan if they`d actually lived here for any significant amount of time.
How long do you consider "long enough"?

You completely lost me here.
Guessing at your question: How long does it take to be Japanese? Never.

Living in Japan for 5-10-20-30-50-100 years willl never make you Japanese in the eyes of Japanese... that not 100% of the population. Favortism based on Race in all aspects of Japanese society exist, but even though the norm there are exception: heck look at the president of Nissan Motors. But that is the norm and that is the majority of public opinion. I'm speaking only of popular opinion. Friends and stranger will most likely discard this opinion only to save face.


Religion, if I may change the subject, is the only exception I've seen that transends all this with the Japanese if you are not Japanese. (But I could be wrong there, just from what I've seen)

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Then that is an issue with the administrator. I`ve experienced nothing but positive responses from any inquiries. We made the choice not to go ahead with adoption at this specific point simply because of issues with our biological child.
Legally, it isn`t.

Administrator: Possibly. The fact that we now currently reside outside of Japan, despite my wife's citizenship may have bearing, despite the option of moving back to Japan. My employer is outside of Japan which also may have bearing.

I got the same message "legally it isn't" but the side bar I spoke of was telling us the final decision would weigh heavily against you because of said circumstances... basically "we can try but the years waisted trying would be spent better outside of Japan"

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Then look outside Japan. That is how long all the adoptive parents (Japanese) I have encountered have needed to wait. I`ve never heard of anyone receiving a child before 3 or 4.

<Edited out>

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I guess all those "international" couples I know who adopted a child in Japan must not be real then. I mean, they shouldn`t have been able to do it because one of them was a foreigner, right? I`m really sad to hear you`re ready to simply give up because of the response of one administrator. But it is your choice, I suppose.

Food for thought indeed. This ridiculous thread has bore fruit.
Thank you for that.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

There are reasons "one parent" adoptions are more difficult to do.

I definitely agree with this - If a qualified two parent home is available, it should definitely receive priority. A child left parentless in the system seems a lost worse than being raised by a decent single parent though.

But I agree this is NOT a death sentence for the child, in fact its a very good experience to grow up in Japan... however the good with the bad is the label being placed on a child in the imaginary situation this thread has setup.

Thank you, I am very glad to hear this. I believe that you really have to weigh things... Which would be better in the long run for a child - a loving parent but a perhaps less than ideal outside environment, or being parentless in a situation close to emotional neglect in many cases (the poorer the country, the less they dedicate to care of orphans...)
Having seen children coming from orphanages in Asia having absolutely no social skills and still being close to an infant in terms of language even at 5 or 6... I find it very hard to think that the child would have a better life if left in that sort of system.

Japanese place blood related parents and family history on a much higher pedistal than the western world.

If you`re Japanese, yes. But those rules hardly apply if you are not.

I agree with you to an extent... but eventually something gives... Gossip of children is ruthless. Physical traits... A shade darker skin , a different tint of hair .... kids find these things like no other.... things the non-japanese learns from their parents come through.

Watch a Japanese kid in Japanese school. The exact same thing happens, I assure you. Bullying is a huge problem, but it is certainly not limited to those with obvious differences.
Either way, there are kids who are half/non-Japanese who make it through school experiencing no "extra" bullying based on race or nationality. You`re right that it makes things easier for someone looking to bully, but it really depends on a lot more than that.

I'm sorry but most native Japanese can pick out a non-japanese asain given a long enough period of time. It doesn't matter is that Asain has lived their for 90% of their life.
There are exceptions I know.. but this is the majority of the time.

Most of China/Taiwan and Korea can pass with absolutely no problem IF they`ve been raised in Japan. If they haven`t, well, it`s not hard at all to tell for pretty much anyone. We know quite a few families in Japan from Taiwan whose children (going by a Japanese name) have zero problems and no one would ever know they weren`t Japanese if they didn`t tell. There are enough Japanese with "non-typical" Japanese features that even if there was something that set them apart their language skill and mannerisms would blot it out.
I definitely agree though when it comes to southern Asia, etc.

To the other side of this: I see in books, tv programs, articles, even dramas that Japan is recognizing these problems of discrimination based on these traits... so I have hope that public gets educated more and it becomes a trend and learned little good comes from this.
It will be lessened and become more like America, but just like America racism still exists.

Things will take time, but it is gradually improving. I too hope that public opinions change toward the better.

Frankly this thread especially nor the other thread do not have the subject of painting Japan in a positive light. And yes I typed up to Tsuwabuki because frankly in both threads the references he made to all of USA and "westerners" was derogitory to say the least (as in post #11 of this thread) and enough in the other thread "whats is like" so even post #33 agrees with Tsuwabuki "yes i dont like america and i live there".
He has stated why he doesn't like the condition of the USA in comparison of Rural Kyoto a little too much for my taste...

I can`t say I`d make the choice to live in America at this point, but, on the other hand, I don`t feel I`m qualified to make many statements about the current state of affairs there. It`s been a very long time since I lived outside of Japan and we have no plans to leave the country. I don`t know the condition of the US these days, so really cannot comment on it.

So I believe negative aspects is the context of the discussion in this thread. Again I'll post some happy ones in the proper group and thread when appropriate..

I`ll take your word for it, as you seem like a decent and intelligent person when not making snide comments to Tsuwabuki.

I beg to differ. What is a culture or society without their people?
To me that is exactly what you wrote.

There are always exceptions. A lot of people (trolling) will come in here saying they can`t stand Japan - except for their spouse and a hand picked selection of friends who "aren`t like everyone else". I`m not saying this is the case with you, but I believe it`s possible to like/love someone even if you have an extremely negative view of the country they live in/are from. I`m sure that those on here who say they hate the US, etc etc would be hard pressed to say they hated every individual there. (That is where the hate thing came from, I apologize as it wasn`t specifically directed toward you or describing what I thought you felt, etc.)

I think that goes hand in hand.

So anyone out there close in age or in length of experience with Japan is going to naturally agree with you about it?
......
People are all different, you know...

On a very serious note I'm am very sorry to read this. I can only try to understand the struggles you , your husband and your child face because of the medical issues.

I wish only the best for your family in having additional child if you decide to do so, or the so said discussion of adoption. This is not pitty or anything else of the sort. I live in a very similar situation as far as us having a child of our own.

Thank you, honestly, for the kind words. I wish you luck too, and that you and your family stay healthy and happy.

You completely lost me here.
Guessing at your question: How long does it take to be Japanese? Never.

That isn`t what I was asking. You said "I understand you have beer glasses on now being young and in Japan now... , one day you will understand if you continue to live in Japan. "
I was asking how long would be long enough, in your opinion, to "understand" - as you put it. I`ve lived in Japan quite some time so I find it sort of hard to imagine my feelings/opinions are going to change in any drastic way after a certain point.

Religion, if I may change the subject, is the only exception I've seen that transends all this with the Japanese if you are not Japanese. (But I could be wrong there, just from what I've seen)

I haven`t had any experiences with religion in Japan, so I really don`t know if this is the case. We only do the typical religious stuff, and as far as religion itself goes fall into the "normal" Japanese cross between Buddhism, Shintoism, and nothing at all.

Administrator: Possibly. The fact that we now currently reside outside of Japan, despite my wife's citizenship may have bearing, despite the option of moving back to Japan. My employer is outside of Japan which also may have bearing.

That may be the case. Those I know who successfully adopted inside Japan were here for the long haul, presumably for the rest of their lives. I do think they obtained UK and US citizenship for the children without difficulty though.
Japan isn`t too keen on adopting OUT of Japan. Inside Japan, I don`t think that race makes much difference... And may even go in your favor if the child is mixed race. (At least that is what I have been told in all our inquiries.)

I got the same message "legally it isn't" but the side bar I spoke of was telling us the final decision would weigh heavily against you because of said circumstances... basically "we can try but the years waisted trying would be spent better outside of Japan"

Now that I know a bit more, I will agree. Some countries are happy to adopt their kids out, some refuse. Japan lies very very close to the refusal line. There may be no official policy against it, but you`re definitely going to have a LOT of trouble.
I have heard that it`s easiest for Japanese/foreign couples outside Japan to adopt a child from Korea. Whether that is true, I don`t really know... Second, third, etc, hand info.

Been working on it. You would be surprised though how little Japanese or partial Japanese are actually available from state to state (USA) ... but yes it is our hope.

Good luck to you, and I mean it honestly. I have heard (again, second or third hand information) that it is somewhat easier to find a Japanese/part-Japanese child for adoption in Hawaii.
Is there no possibility of adopting a child who is not of Japanese heritage?

[Tsuwabuki]

I'm actually on vacation, in Taipei, so I spent time today doing touristy things. That being said, obviously there is a lot to go through that has been posted, and I can't possibly reply to it all bit by bit, but I'll try to hit the highlights.

I guess I was understanding his message in a different way than you have. To me, it appeared he was asking whether bringing an adopted child into Japan was a possibility. Not whether he would be a good parent, or whether any country would allow him to adopt a child. I leave that judgement up to those who actually make those decisions.
If it were impossible to bring an adopted child into Japan, it would be a moot point from day one.

Nyororin is correct. This is precisely what I was asking. It would indeed be a moot point since I have no reason to leave Japan in the forseeable future. Forseeable being at least the next five to ten years.

I can`t say I have a high opinion of the choice to raise a child as a single parent. Especially at an age where it is completely and totally possible that he will decide to have a relationship later on. A child could (99% chance) seriously complicate that.
But - if he is totally serious about not being interested in a relationship, marriage, or the problems adopted a child before that could bring... I still see it as better for a child to have one parent than NO parents. Any adopted child will be entering a "foreign" environment, even if adopted in their own country.

Actually, I haven't had a relationship in nearly four years. I've dated a few times, both in and outside of Japan, and I'll be frank: my heart isn't in it. I really don't see that changing. I agree that my preference would be to have a partner in raising a child, and I think that it does indeed make it easier. If I wait, how long should I wait? What if at 35 I still feel the same way? Should I put off adopting then? 40? Where do you draw the line? These are rhetorical questions. Frankly, I don't think any one really knows the answer to that.

This may be true. I don`t know. If they judge him unsuitable to be an adoptive parent, then they do. All I know is that IF he were able to adopt, he could indeed bring the child into Japan as a dependent if they are under 6.

This is all I wanted to know. The rest, as I said, will be up to State, the adoption agency, or a combination. No one here is going to be able to give me advice on what exactly they're going to tell me. Nor was it my question.

I definitely agree with this - If a qualified two parent home is available, it should definitely receive priority. A child left parentless in the system seems a lost worse than being raised by a decent single parent though.

I concur. The whole point of this is because, while yes, I do want a child (even if I don't want the spouse), I also want to be beneficial to the child. If a more stable environment is in competition with me, then I would be selfish if I did not want the child to go to that environment.

Frankly this thread especially nor the other thread do not have the subject of painting Japan in a positive light. And yes I typed up to Tsuwabuki because frankly in both threads the references he made to all of USA and "westerners" was derogitory to say the least (as in post #11 of this thread) and enough in the other thread "whats is like" so even post #33 agrees with Tsuwabuki "yes i dont like america and i live there".
He has stated why he doesn't like the condition of the USA in comparison of Rural Kyoto a little too much for my taste...

Derogatory? I've clearly stated that I'm quite proud of America. Not as proud at the moment as I could be, of course, but there's always room for improvement. Nor was I bashing westerners in general. Nor, for that matter, was I idolising the Japanese. Japan has idiots, and it has problems. Not a society on Earth that doesn't, but this constant portrayal of Japan as being problem-ridden where non-Japanese are accosted on a daily basis across the country as if Japan were some sort of anti-Foriegner police state need to stop. It just isn't true.

And you've been extremely condescending. I treat everyone like my intellectual equal, at least at the beginning. When I approach a discourse with an academic mindset, it is because I respect the person on the other side, as long as they meet me with the same mindset. You have repeatedly abused this by claiming you need not engage in a way that follows the rules of debate. Instead you make snide little witticisms intended to provoke. A perfect example is:

Glad you are making a good living there.. it is commindable.. plus if English Teaching is really want you want to do as career (a career is field of work you have chosen for life).. then more power to you.

I am well aware of the definition of the word career. And since I said I went to college to be an English teacher, that would imply that, yes, I do intend to make it my career. I have every intention of teaching, at some level, in some subject area, for the rest of my life. Most likely, it will be English. It, perhaps, might be philosophy. But then... you already knew that, you were just trying to provoke a response, and I've failed to disappoint.

And you go on to say I made comments I never made. Not only the very essence of the first post, but also here:

You say your younger highschool chums are too young to have children as a couple yet you come up with this mad plan.

I didn't say this. I said that I was in a better financial position than they are, and that they were younger than I now am, yet they still chose to have children. I never said they were too young to have children.

When you sprinkle your counter-points with inaccurate information and intentionally inflammatory comments how can you expect to be taken seriously?

And if I had meant advice, I would have said advice. I said thoughts and I meant thoughts. You had your say, you issued your thoughts, don't feel hurt that I find them flawed and ignore them.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I'm actually on vacation, in Taipei, so I spent time today doing touristy things. That being said, obviously there is a lot to go through that has been posted, and I can't possibly reply to it all bit by bit, but I'll try to hit the highlights.

My god man.. enjoy the sites and put the laptop away then... the forum can wait.
I don't want to be the cause of ruining your trip.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Derogatory? I've clearly stated that I'm quite proud of America. Not as proud at the moment as I could be, of course, but there's always room for improvement. Nor was I bashing westerners in general. Nor, for that matter, was I idolising the Japanese. Japan has idiots, and it has problems. Not a society on Earth that doesn't, but this constant portrayal of Japan as being problem-ridden where non-Japanese are accosted on a daily basis across the country as if Japan were some sort of anti-Foriegner police state need to stop. It just isn't true.

And you've been extremely condescending. I treat everyone like my intellectual equal, at least at the beginning. When I approach a discourse with an academic mindset, it is because I respect the person on the other side, as long as they meet me with the same mindset. You have repeatedly abused this by claiming you need not engage in a way that follows the rules of debate. Instead you make snide little witticisms intended to provoke. A perfect example is:

You are welcome to go back through all my posts and try to find where I say "Japan is problem-ridden where non-Japanese are "accosted" on a daily basis. Never said accosted.

My words clearly say that foreigners will always be treated by foreigners by Japanese in Japan by Japanese who simply do not know them. This treatment varies from person to person but I agree it is not "accosting" / agressive or challenging. That is simpy not the Japanese way (again in general).

The point is that Foreigners will have the initial "special treatment" and will have to continually prove themselves in their career and any non-short term social interaction.

This behaviour is not always deliberate either... it is simply a lack of knowledge by the other party. A recent personal example My personal favorite is eating in a public setting (at the same table with strangers) and have them look at in you in awe as you use chopsticks. The will speak right in front you to the other person beside them and say "wow he can use chopsticks very well... I'm surprised"... mind you I wasn't pigging out...
Nothing was said, and it might of been embarrising if I struck up a conversation, usually to best let it go and move on. But if you are constantly hit with these little things on a daily basis, depending upon the person and personality ... it grows on you - whether it is of having no intention or good-intentions.

I don't expect this to change and for it to never happen in for Japan to not to be Japan. All I was saying in the other thread is to expect these eventual displeasantries while being a foreigner in Japan.

To be fair I suppose special treatment should have been defined to not come across as accosting, but the examples already presented in the thread were non-accosting examples.. except when you compared it to being accosted by the KKK and the Hiroshima memorial.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

When you sprinkle your counter-points with inaccurate information and intentionally inflammatory comments how can you expect to be taken seriously?

My points speak from themselves ... I sorry you don't like the way they are presented.
The are obviously taken seriously for this thread to go on this long.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

And if I had meant advice, I would have said advice. I said thoughts and I meant thoughts. You had your say, you issued your thoughts, don't feel hurt that I find them flawed and ignore them.

Next time I'll push the Quote with Thoughts button vs the Quote with Advice button then.
My mistake.

No hard feelings at all. You are welcome, of course, to ignore them all.

[clintjm]

Nyororin,

Thank you much for you thoughts / advice.
Best and continued well being to you and your family.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by clintjm

My god man.. enjoy the sites and put the laptop away then... the forum can wait.
I don't want to be the cause of ruining your trip.

I only respond in the morning and at night when I am in my hotel anyhow.

love and kisses my friend. Just trying to bring you down a little off the high horse you ride. It is difficult.

This is exactly the type of behavior that is not welcome in an academic discourse. Just drop the witticisms, they are not welcome.

You are welcome to go back through all my posts and try to find where I say "Japan is problem-ridden where non-Japanese are "accosted" on a daily basis. Never said accosted.

No, but the original posters that you agreed with did say this. They talked about incidents with employers, administrators, and police. I don't just mean accost in the sense of actual assault and battery. I mean harassed.

My words clearly say that foreigners will always be treated by foreigners by Japanese in Japan by Japanese who simply do not know them. This treatment varies from person to person but I agree it is not "accosting" / agressive or challenging. That is simpy not the Japanese way (again in general).

And all I ever said was how is this an issue? I've said repeatedly that this doesn't become a problem, but you try to argue that is.

The point is that Foreigners will have the initial "special treatment" and will have to continually prove themselves in their career and any non-short term social interaction.

And how is this any different from the expectations anywhere else in this world? If someone isn't improving, they don't get promoted. That's pretty simple.

This behaviour is not always deliberate either... it is simply a lack of knowledge by the other party. A recent personal example My personal favorite is eating in a public setting (at the same table with strangers) and have them look at in you in awe as you use chopsticks. The will speak right in front you to the other person beside them and say "wow he can use chopsticks very well... I'm surprised"... mind you I wasn't pigging out...
Nothing was said, and it might of been embarrising if I struck up a conversation, usually to best let it go and move on. But if you are constantly hit with these little things on a daily basis, depending upon the person and personality ... it grows on you - whether it is of having no intention or good-intentions.

This is where you and I differ. This rarely happens, but when it does, it is usually directed at me not said around me. In the beginning, I had coworkers tell me they were amazed by my ability to use chopsticks. I looked at them like they were crazy until they finally asked about my facial expression. I said I had been using chopsticks since a small child, asian food is very common in American kitchens, and that it makes about as much sense as an American being surprised the Japanese can use forks, which is to say, no sense at all. I've never been asked about it by a coworker again. I didn't do it in a hostile or defensive manner, in fact, if I recall, I was quite "cheerfully perplexed" by their comments, but it certainly got the message across clearly enough.

In the rare instances where people talk about me as if I am not there, I do strike up a conversation and tell the offending parties that I am quite capable of this or that action, and it's rude to talk about people as if they're not there. In Japanese, of course. Rarely is this adults though. My kids sometimes forget I speak Japanese, and I remind them, with a verbal tap, that this is not the case, and they're not just in my classroom to learn English, but also to become better global citizens. However, again, these situations are very rare.

I don't expect this to change and for it to never happen in for Japan to not to be Japan. All I was saying in the other thread is to expect these eventual displeasantries while being a foreigner in Japan.

As long as you also admit this is not a regular occurrence that must be dealt with over and over on a daily basis, as it sounds like right now you are saying.

To be fair I suppose special treatment should have been defined to not come across as accosting, but the examples already presented in the thread were non-accosting examples.. except when you compared it to being accosted by the KKK and the Hiroshima memorial.

They were? As I said, I seem to recall instances, and I can go back and find them, where the issues I had were with truly horrendous actions, like the comment about constantly being pulled over by the police. That's maybe not physically attacking someone, but it is clearly harassment.

My points speak from themselves ... I sorry you don't like the way they are presented.
The are obviously taken seriously for this thread to go on this long.

No points speak for themselves when we disagree. If we agreed, then yes, perhaps they would.

And the thread has gone on because I've never been able to choose my battles wisely, definitely one of my flaws. Now I do it with words, but there was a time I would meet bullies, after just so much bullying, by breaking their noses so they would never harass me again. I never did get around to being able to see if that whole "ignoring" thing actually worked.

Next time I'll push the Quote with Thoughts button vs the Quote with Advice button then.
My mistake.

Words matter. They are different words because they have different meanings. Don't be so glib, especially in a written environment where other factors, such as tone, can not so easily be communicated. If I had wanted advice, I would have asked for it. There is no other way to say that.

[masaegu]

So, what happened, OP? Did you adopt a child in the end?