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07-04-2009, 09:45 AM
First, let me give you a round of (laughing) applause. You gave me the exact answer I expected - and that isn`t a good thing.
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All of my life, I have believed that efforts toward equality for women were to give women the ability to make their own choices - regardless of what those choices may be. You`re telling me now that there is a CORRECT choice that should be made, and an INCORRECT choice that should never be made? How is that increasing the options for women? How is that giving them the right to live life as they feel fit? They`re wrong not to go out and do the exact same things as men? Believing that your place is in the home because you are inferior is a world away from WANTING to be the home-maker and caregiver to the children because it is something you enjoy. Or wait - that enjoyment is only felt because those women have been so very oppressed that they can`t make their own choices, right? They need to be told what is good for them by the other more "enlightened" women, right? Wow, doesn`t sound all that different from being oppressed by men - but because it`s women it is alright to judge and pressure them? Why, exactly, is not emulating a man "inferior" in your eyes? 萱津ヶ原に 名をとどむ もののふどもの 夢のまた夢」 
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07-04-2009, 02:13 PM
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07-04-2009, 02:50 PM
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IT'S MY OPINION. The fact that you and so many others have come on here to attack me about MY OPINION says that YOU think there's a "correct" choice also. So please, kindly back the fuck off. I'm entitled to my honest feelings, my honest thoughts. You asked for them. I gave them. I, on the other hand, didn't ask for your sarcasm. Why is it so damned impossible for someone to have a discussion, to say what they think and have that be the end of it, on this forum? My God. What I'm arguing is that women make that choice because they were conditioned to think a certain way. It's like a virus that keeps spreading. In my opinion, it's brainwashing. When someone is brought up to think, "I'm inferior, my place is in the house," OF COURSE they're going to make the "choice" to stay in the house. OF COURSE they're going to look at independent women and think that they aren't acting like "real women." What I don't like about that is that those "inferior women" will continue spreading the virus - onto other men and women, onto their children. Their children will be brought up to think that women belong in the kitchen. And then, yes - they, too, will make their "choices." THOSE are the women who I don't appreciate. It's funny that you completely left out my last paragraph. It's there that I go on to explain that, though these are my initial feelings, I also want to feel more open minded about it by asking why they think this way, why they make these "choices." Of course, you completely ignored it. I guess because you, like so many others before you, really just want to pick another fight. :/
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07-04-2009, 03:17 PM
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My opinion isn`t that there is a right or wrong choice - In fact, the choice itself doesn`t matter a bit to me. What is important is that there is an opportunity to make a choice. Your choice is up to YOU - the choices of other women should be up to THEM. Why is it that so many who call themselves "feminists" seem to think that if a woman doesn`t make the choice to go out and do all the same things as a man that she must be brainwashed, oppressed, or have an inferiority complex? I honestly do not understand where THAT thinking comes from. Are women not intelligent enough to make their own decisions without having to be told which is the "right" one? I find the implications of that in your opinion quite offensive, to be honest. Should women all suddenly stop doing things they enjoy simply because at some point that was (possibly) part of some oppressive scheme? If a woman loves to cook in her own kitchen, why shouldn`t she continue to do so? There is nothing I detest more than someone forcing their view of the world and their opinion of what is right on others. That goes for men to women, men to men, women to women, and women to men. Everyone should have the equal opportunity to make their own decisions in life. That is true equality. I`ll make it very very clear, as you may miss it otherwise - My answer to the question of why a woman would ever choose to take the path YOU consider inferior... Maybe, just maybe, as hard as it may be for you to imagine... because they actually WANT to take that path. Because they have their own personality, wishes, dreams and desires, and are making decisions to fulfill them. And, just another small question - when on earth did I ever say anything that could be interpreted as "women choosing not to take a submissive role look at other women as 'not real women'"? The only one who has said that one type of woman or her choice is inferior to another has been you, mercedesjin. 萱津ヶ原に 名をとどむ もののふどもの 夢のまた夢」
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07-04-2009, 03:23 PM
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07-04-2009, 04:41 PM
Mercedesjin, how dare you lambaste Nyororin for "ignoring" a part of your post when you have publicly declared you are going to ignore me?
Let's be clear you are ignoring me for saying the phrase "Racism is wherever you want to find it." You talk about your opinion and put it in all caps. 引用:
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bELyVIS told you to get over it when talking about your pedestal of victimization, and you said he was "denying your heritage". You declared yourself a "second-class American" and he told you to get over it. That made him a racist. I am not going to tell you to get over it, but I will say grow up. Get your nose out of the self-victimizing literature and smell the roses. I am a straight white male, which in the literature you have quoted is the trifecta of wrong. You want me to apologize for being what God made me, and that is not going to happen. I wish you were the first person who made me the bad guy for being a straight white man. I told you long ago, mercedesjin, that I was fighting for justice before you were even born. I don't expect you to understand that because this is a forum and all we are is words to each other. You remind me of those who assumed I had to have been gay because there is no other reason why I would have been fighting for justice. That way of thinking is sad, because it is defeatist. It creates a culture of victimization and "us vs. them". I didn't let it bother me so much then but to be honest, it bothers me now. I won't go into detail about the work I did, but you are free to ask if it makes a difference. In my days of being on the front line of fighting for justice and equality the first thing was to respect your ally and the second was to know your enemy. You have done the absolute opposite, mercedesjin. You know nothing of your allies and disrespect them. You toss around words like racist and sexist to those that are not. It is not a wise strategy to reduce the power of the words in your arsenal by using them on potential allies. Chances are, mercedesjin, you would agree in general with the liberal thinking of bELyVIS, Nyororin, and myself. Unfortunately you have created a situation where it is you against the world. You insult Nyororin, bELyVIS, and me? We were your potential allies. That tells my you are in a personal vicitimization mode and strike out at everyone. I will sound like a know-it-all if I say this isn't abnormal for students your age, but it isn't abnormal for students your age. I know I am just words on a computer screen, but since you show such disdain for your potential allies, I am curious who you do respect? I know it isn't anyone here.
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07-04-2009, 04:56 PM
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Why do these women want to take that path? Why is it a part of their personality to stay at home and take care of the house and their husbands? Feminists aren't fighting against these individual women - we're fighting against the system that makes women think that they have a particular role to fulfill. It's the system, in my opinion, that conditions and brainwashes women into thinking that they have a place in this society. Any human being can want many things. If society tells me that, in order to be successful, I must make a lot of money and buy a big house - then gosh darn it, I'm going to want to make a lot of money and buy a big house. If society tells women that, in order to be good wives, they need to stay at home and cook and take care of their husbands - well, then, I'm sure many women will want to do just that. Conditioning is a state that goes deep into the subconscious. It effects everyone - even to the smallest details, such as someone's favorite color... or, to the larger issues, such as someone preferring a white skin over black skin. It also effects how people perceive their roles in society. In my society, as a black woman, I've been told that I need to stand up for myself constantly. So, gosh darn it, I'll do just that. I've also been told constantly that my place is in the kitchen, cooking for men and cleaning up after men. That's one thing that I decided I wouldn't do. I could have CHOSEN to do it, yes. I would have been HAPPY doing it, yes - because hey, that's what I wanted. I know women who are happy doing just that. I'm not fighting against those women, though. I'm fighting against the system that suggested to us and conditioned us into thinking that we belong in the house, into making us happy acting as housewives because we think that's our only role. When asked, "What do you want to be?" I've seen little girls say, "A mommy." And, when asked if they knew if they could go out and do anything else, I've seen them say no. Sad, right? A woman can cook. I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing against is the idea that a woman must cook - only a woman, not a man - because that's her role. Hey, I love cooking. I'll cook for myself and others any day. But I also look towards others - including men - to do the same for me. That's what equality is all about, right? (And, I'm not sure if you know where this conversation stemmed from - but, if you look back a few pages, you'll see that this is all I've been arguing against from the beginning. We were talking about 50-50 relationships. Some thought that one must dominate the other in a relationship for it to work properly.) As for your opinion, I wasn't talking about the choices women make. I was talking about your opinion, and my opinion, and the opinions on this thread. There are countless opinions, 20 pages worth. So - well, why is it MY opinion that people have jumped on? That's really what I was referring to. I don't know where you got the impression that many feminists are like that. In my experience, feminists are men and women who fight so that women have the same economic chances as men. In my experience, feminists are men and women who fight ardently against violence against women. I think you have a stereotypical image of a feminist, the type of image processed by oppressors so that people will back away from the idea of equality. Also, I never said that you said they're not real women. I looked back. I checked. I really did not say that. I was speaking of different societies in general who most certainly do think and feel that way. Right now, I'm in a society that thinks I'm not a real woman for thinking this way. Believe me, if you'd said that to me, I wouldn't have responded so calmly.
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