Japanese views on dating

[GoNative]

I've spent my fair share of nights hanging out in local snack bars chatting away and singing a song or three. Snack bars are great! I've never been to a hostess bar though and don't really ever plan to.

[steven]

Originally Posted by MMM

How things play out in Southern CA are different than almost anywhere else in the world.

To be clear, snack bars are not populated with "scantily clad" women. Generally snack hostesses wear colorful versions of business type wear (skirts with blouses and jackets).

Also to be clear, snack hostesses do not traditionally sleep with their clients. It's a bar, not a whorehouse.

Why would you say that? When I worked at a high school I went with colleagues to snack bars all the time (often with female teachers). No one went there to have sex, we went there to have good service and conversation.

I think there was a misunderstanding. I didn't mean to suggest that they are about sex. I suspect that it does happen, but that would be the exception to the rule. As far as scantily clad women go... I should be clear by stating that it definitely depends on the place (no nudity unless you go to a place for that, but that's not what we're talking about). I've been to a ton of snack bars, so I'm talking about my experience. I know there are some where the women wear more conservative style clothing and some where that is definitely not the case. I'm not just talking about one single experience, I've been to many places in multiple prefectures.

I didn't mean to imply that people go to those places to have sex. I think that by and large though, people go there to get good service and have conversation with pretty women (the last part being the key word). The woman doesn't have to be young or anything either. While some women don't mind going there, I know for sure that a lot are uncomfortable with it and just kind of go out of obligation (to the boss, friends, not to go against the grain, or whatever). And while I'm pretty sure those places have a strict policy of no touching etc that rule can and does get broken at some places for sure (because I've seen it and heard of it at multiple places).

Not to make them seem horrible. I personally like them a lot depending on the situation. I used to go a lot to one in particular because it was really cheap. It's like Go Native said, you have a bit to drink, sing some karaoke, and just kinda joke around with people. The place I used to love had all you can drink and all you can sing for a very reasonable price (Cheaper than going to a karaoke place!).

As far as the technical term for what I'm talking about goes, there's not really a line drawn around here as far as I can tell. They're all called snack bars and that's for certain. Maybe that could be a regional thing? I have no idea, but around here "snack" implies every one of the things we're talking about. In one room you might have a bar and kind of a lounge-esque area. Some of them might just have a bar. In fact, I've heard some of the crazier stories from the ones that are just "bars" (without the loungey area... ie a smaller place).

As far as a "traditional" bar (from the American point of view goes) there are a few of those in my town as well. Those are not called snacks by any means by the people here.

I'll make it clear though, I don't want to argue the difference between a snack and a hostess club. I'm not familiar with the English phrases and all that anyways. As far as the Japanese around here goes, they call what I (and you guys) have been describing a "snack". Granted there are many variations of a snack, the people here call all of them a snack (not to be confused with a simple bar, which isn't called a snack at least around here).

As far as "food" goes, most of the ones I've been to will bring out a bowl of... snacks (like the Japanese version of a chex mix and some chocolates and stuff). I've only been to a few where they served like cooked food (nothing to get full off of).

At any rate, I wanted to share this link with you guys. The title is "Views on marriage in Japan". (it's a translated survey with a bit of commentary).

Views on marriage in Japan | 世論 What Japan Thinks

Edit: I will look into this for sure. Judging by what you guys are saying makes me think that there could be a regional language thing going on here. I'm 100% sure of what I'm talking about and I haven't known you guys to be wrong about what you talk about.

[missprincess]

thanks for the japan marriage link i found it to be very informative

[missprincess]

guys ino this is totally off topic but how do i set a custom avatar?

thanks

[steven]

Well, about the whole snack thing, I talked about it with my wife and she said basically snacks and hostess clubs aren't really all that different except that a hostess club implies a "richer" customer. I guess that would lead to "dates" or whatever during the daytime as well, although I've heard of that at a regular snack too. I asked if maybe it was a regional thing and she said she didn't think that was the case. I don't know where the distinction that you guys are talking about came from... but it sounds like there is a different distinction out there than my wife or I are familiar with, that's for certain.

I think that there are different variations of snacks basically. Some of them are "just a bar", but with that snack vibe, and others take that farther into an area that you guys are calling a "hostess club". Of course there are all those shades in between as well.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by steven

Well, about the whole snack thing, I talked about it with my wife and she said basically snacks and hostess clubs aren't really all that different except that a hostess club implies a "richer" customer. I guess that would lead to "dates" or whatever during the daytime as well, although I've heard of that at a regular snack too. I asked if maybe it was a regional thing and she said she didn't think that was the case. I don't know where the distinction that you guys are talking about came from... but it sounds like there is a different distinction out there than my wife or I are familiar with, that's for certain.

I think that there are different variations of snacks basically. Some of them are "just a bar", but with that snack vibe, and others take that farther into an area that you guys are calling a "hostess club". Of course there are all those shades in between as well.

I think that the question here is "Has your wife ever been to one?"

There is a huge difference between what people think something is and it`s reality.

There are women who look for men at snacks - but they`re not employees. Some of them do fall into the lines of a pick-up bar. But I am thinking that it`s more ignorance (I don`t mean this in an insulting manner, but in the way of "lack of knowledge") in the case of your wife.

I didn`t used to think there was any difference, and that snacks were just seedier versions of the hostess clubs. And then someone I knew worked in one and set me straight. I think that some of the current reputation may come from it being fairly common for women who used to work in the hostess to start one up after getting older (and often after getting married and having kids).

My understanding though is that snacks came to be first, with women bartenders (something that was very controversial at the time apparently). Just having a woman doing the work part of serving and running the place in itself was sort of "naughty". Hostess bars were a major step up from this and went off on their own tangent.

The best way is to think of it sort of like a type of bar started back when it was "naughty" for a woman to show her ankles - with waitresses in knee length skirts.
Now imagine if nothing much had changed since then.

Sure, it may have started out with the idea of using the women as the sales point. And sure, the level of skin exposure may have been shocking at the time. But now, in a world of miniskirts, considering knee length skirts erotic is a bit of a stretch.

Of course, the reputation remains - despite the reality.

[steven]

I have to be honest, not only has my wife been to plenty of snacks, she used to work at one with a friend for years (for the record, no we didn't meet there). The area in which I live seems to have A LOT of snacks. It's pretty insane, actually. For such a small population to have so many snacks is almost funny in a sense. If you take the population of adult men, you get something like 1 snack for every 150-200 men. In comparrison to any other kinds of establishments here, those numbers are insane.

I've talked to dozens of people who work(ed) at snacks as well.

By "dates" I mean that sometimes the people working at these places will "go out" with one of their patrons in the day. That kind of activity might include the guy going out and buying something for the woman. (It's not something I understand as a man, but I know it does happen). Other guys might just give gifts sometimes. Usually buying a drink for the worker is customary in my experience. They might even ask for it. I've heard of people giving bags of rice (that they harvested themselves of course). I've know people can keep their own alcohol at a place for when they go there. I've seen people bring ingredients for food as well (like homegrown vegetables and soup and stuff like that... but that was only once). People will go out with the girls from a snack as well for dinner (before or after).

The older women starting snacks is something I've heard of quite often. Here's a couple of circumstances that I've heard of this in-- 1. maybe it's a single mother who previously had experience at a snack and has recently been divorced (it's good money and free alcohol). 2. maybe it's a mother who's kid has finished school (it's good money and it's hard times for finding other kinds of work for people past a certain age).

I've seen the "knee length" skirts you're talking about. I've also seen things so short I wouldn't even call it a skirt. I've seen a lot in between too. I think that the length just depends on the person and the establishment, really.

I think certain places play on the whole S and M thing (which totally depends on the worker). It's usually to a very subtle degree though. Really, it's kind of like flirting without it really going anywhere.

I'm a little confused at the end-ish area of your post though. Are you saying that a Hostess club involves longer skirts than a snack? Like it's in that sense "higher class"? That sounds like it would fall in line with what my wife said. I'm kind of assuming "longer skirt"= "higher class" as well as the fact that you were talking about "hostess clubs" at teh end of your post though.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by steven

I'm a little confused at the end-ish area of your post though. Are you saying that a Hostess club involves longer skirts than a snack? Like it's in that sense "higher class"? That sounds like it would fall in line with what my wife said. I'm kind of assuming "longer skirt"= "higher class" as well as the fact that you were talking about "hostess clubs" at teh end of your post though.

I was giving an example, really, and not pointing to anything specific. I certainly didn`t mean the skirts thing literally! I was trying to point out that something that may have been considered pretty risqué back in it`s day is totally tame now. At a certain point in time showing ankles was taboo - now (in a world where mini-skirts are totally normal), it means nothing.

In a world of hyper-seduction hostess bars, the flirting in a snack bar seems like nothing. An easy way to make this clear - I have friends who work/worked in snacks, and some who have worked in hostess bars. (It`s easy to get this information out of them as my mother worked in the US both as an "escort" and in what would be considered a "snack" by Japanese standards.

In the snack, flirting is the norm. Maybe receiving gifts is the norm. But there is no expectation of SEX after it. The men (except for weird exceptions) know the bounds, and it`s not all that uncommon for them to really care about the life of the woman, her kids, etc. The guys are usually friends with each other, and women are also welcome - more like strongly welcomed, to lighten up the atmosphere.

In a hostess bar, the gifts and dates are aiming for sex. It`s like gambling - how much money has to go in before she puts out? I`ll "win" by scoring with her before the other guys do... etc. The girls ARE expected to let some guys "win", or at least get very very close to lead them on for more and more money. They set internal secret "rules" - ie. No penetration until over 3000万, etc. The other men are competitors, rivals, enemies. Bring a woman in? You`ve got to be kidding.

[steven]

I think I get it now... but it seemed like what I was describing was being called a hostess bar, when I was describing what I know as a snack. What you're describing is not what I was describing at all (at least I wasn't trying to describe that). As far as those extravagant amounts of money goes, that's kind of how my wife put it. A place like that would only see the likes of bosses and stuff like that. Although I don't know of any of those in my area. I know there are some places more geared towards regulars, but a snack in my experience doesn't imply that the customers are all familiar with one another by any means.

And "dates and gifts" type of things do happen at snacks, but obviously not at the same level as you're describing for the hostess clubs!

[steven]

Here's yet another interesting survey translated from the blog I read:

Separate beds preferred by married Japanese | 世論 What Japan Thinks

I think it's really interesting. What do you guys think about it? What do you think the reason is?