i dont think men contributing to housework is modern its actually very old depending where ur from and ur culture etc, but id rather be slightly less well off and be able to hang out with other housewife friends, and do what i want all day (not necessarily stay in the house coz being a house wife doesnt mean ur locked in the house) then go to work and bust my hump just so i can afford a nicer handbag - dunno, if thats modernism id rather be old fashioned!

Really...? Your biggest goal in life is to marry a man who earns enough for you to fully devote your efforts to taking care of your house and children? Is that what you want?! And you call that a "much smarter" choice of life? And you refer to the working world as a "man's world"? That's insulting. Really.

Geez, it's been a looong while since I last read sexist comments like those. Your motivation to go to work is to finance a handbag, and you'd rather be hanging out with other housewives (you didn't say friends, you said housewives) than being at work, going professional and really earning your money. I don't know how it is in your world, but in mine, going to work is not something you do out of obligation. Didn't you say you were a trainee lawyer? From that I understand you're looking to get a job as a lawyer someday, cause otherwise you'd be just very silly to waste your time getting academically prepared to do something you don't ever plan on performing. And according to you, once you get married you wanna quit your job and spend all of your time looking after your kids and doing whatever in your house. Well, that's alright if that's the kind of life you want for yourself, but just know you're as bad as those who claim that men are superior to women, because you're chosing the lifestyle women have fought to get rid of for so long! And what's worse, you think you're being smart cause your man will be the one who brings in the money and you think that will allow you to do what you want and spend all the money he's been paid on stuff such as handbags. Lame. Seriously, you should be ashamed.

In lawschool she can meet smart, rich, lawyers, right? It's the perfect place to be for someone who would like to be a housewife...

Suki you wouldn't last a day in Japan with that kind of thinking, don't get me wrong, I like the idea of my woman working so I don't have to do it so much :) it's just unlikely for me around here lol

i think u need to get over the fact that not all women wanna work in their life and that theres nothing sexist about it at all, i find it kinda stupid that a women needs to prove she can do a mans jobs by busting her hump at work then coming home and doing all the household chores too - that aint smart to me - generally when u get something for nothing thats smarter then having to work 12 hours a day for it - and there aint nothing wrong with wanting to do that in life (for eg if a man sed that he wanted to be a stay at home dad and that was his goal in life) is that sexist? er nope - so why shud it be for a women, not every women feels oppressed by 'staying at home' - and u cant shove ur ideals down someone elses throat like that so really love u shud be ashamed

btw getting an education and having a career are 2 totally seperate issues ive heard so many times ppl throw up this argument of why get one when ur not gna do the other, why not! education refines a person to a great degree and makes them a more socially stable individual, i know plently of women who have gotten an education then had children and not bothered to work because being a mother was a full time job anyway, and more imp in alot of ways - but also because being an educated mother meant that they were able to support and nuture their children in so many more ways, - its not a waste - and to say that a woman shudnt bother to get an education if she aint gona work IMO is far more sexist!

and yes i am a trainee lawyer and i also said i would work for a while then leave when i had kids - im guessing u musta missed that part

and at no point did anyone say anyone was superior to anyone - now ur just putting words in my mouth

There is no such thing as "a man's job" << that right here is sexist.

Who said women are the ones who have to do all the house chores? I expect my husband to do as much as I do. I would never share a house with anyone (neither men nor women) who'd be unwilling to do shit for the house. It's two adults living in there, so they have to do the same amount of house chores, no matter what they were born with between the legs. What isn't smart is to assume that laundry and dishwashing is your task to do because you've been born a woman << again, that is sexist.

And if you believe the whole point of working is getting paid then yeah sure, it's better to just get the money without bothering to do anything in exchange. But the thing is, some people enjoy their job. Some people are good at something other than doing house work and have real goals, and guess what!? Women can have professional ambitions too! Yes! It's ok for a woman to devote herself to her job and it's ok for a man to pick up a broom and sweep.

It's so very sad that someone's biggest ambition is to become a housewife. I mean, going to lawschool so that you can meet a wealthy guy and do nothing but house chores and take the kids to school? Dude, what a life perspective.


That's fine by me cause I don't wish to go to Japan and make a life there.

It seems to me like you place more value in having a career than playing an active role in raising your children...

I get your points, there are more than enough feminists in the world for us all to have heard them.

But I think it helps to differentiate between a woman forced by society to stay home even if she doesn't want to, compared to a woman who chooses to do so.

The empowerment of women by feminism is almost forcing and telling some of them to do what they may very well not want to, which in my opinion is just as bad.

Don't you think so?

Of course. I've been brought to this world to make a difference! LOL Nah, seriously. I wanna have a family and raise kids someday, but I wanna have a brilliant career too, and I wouldn't wanna have to give up my career for my children. I would if I had to but that's not the topic. Anyway, I can't understaind why someone would choose not to go big in their field cause they'd rather be a housewife. That's just me. If she wants to do it then fine, but the moment she says having a real job is a "man's work", I feel insulted, cause I plan on having a real job and making it into the "man's world", and she makes it sound like a woman belongs in the house.

I'm not a feminist. All I'm saying is any woman can be a working parent without having to rely on a husband to provide her with a home. Of course forcing someone to do something against their will is wrong. But getting a job is something everyone should aspire to achieve. Plus, I believe it's not mentally healthy to not have anything to do other than run a house. Having a job makes you feel useful and everyone needs to feel useful to some extent. Notice I've been accusing her of being sexist because she has been making sexist statements. If she wants to be a housewife and be attached to a man her entire life, it's fine, go right ahead and just hope her man never leaves her, cause then she'll be left with nothing cause her husband was her only source of financement, and that is because she made it that way soooo she had it coming. :smokingbear:

lol you've got it all worked out :)

for the record, I got the feeling that when she said "man's job" it was meant to be understood that she meant "what is stereotypically considered to be a man's job by those who don't know any better" except that that's too long to say while maintaining an argument :) I doubt she meant it as an honest opinion that men are more suited to be lawyers than she is.
(women are much better liars, much better lawyers, this is just accepted anyways)

and now we enter hypothetical land:

Were I a woman, I think I'd want to get the having children part of my life over with before I was 25 or so, because women who have children at a later age well... it punishes them physically >< and also because if the man leaves the woman within the first 10 years she has a chance of still being hot enough to get another nice catch.
Or I'd never have kids, get rich, and play with young men

and now I'm leaving hypothetical land cuz it's grossing me out! :eek:

I understand what you’re saying, Suki, about wanting to do more with your life and aspiring to do and be more. It shouldn't be said that working is a "man's job" or a "man's world" and it shouldn't be brought into question whether or not it's a "smart" idea or not. Personally, I don't think it's smart to want to be a housewife or dumb to want to work and vice versa. It is a life choice, something that we make everyday. Like RealJames wants to be a house dad (cute, BTW). House dads are becoming much more common then it used to be, I'm sure they don't think it's a "women's world" in the house, that would make them less of a man. Me personally, I think it takes a man to pickup a broom or take out the trash or just help their woman out with dinner or something every once in a while.

Some people look at being a housewife as having a career. Taking care of the house can be a full time especially if you have a lot of kids, but it's not solely a woman's job to do. The time for a man to sit around getting pampered at home is over (At least in America and some other countries) In Japan it is still that way with some families even though it's starting to change. But those men work so many hours and are so tired when they come home, they deserve a little pampering….. poor guys.

Women everywhere are starting to desire to educated themselves and have careers. That is there every right and is, in no way, a less than smart idea. Working is empowering, to know that you don't have to depend on a man to bring you the money you need to survive. What if he dies? What if he decides to leave you for someone else(happens)? What if he is abusive and you don't have the money to leave and you don't have enough work experience to get a job to support you and your children.

Don't get me wrong, being a housewife can be a very rewarding experience, I've seen women who are VERY happy at home. But saying that it's a smarter choice is saying that life's curve balls won't find you and your life will workout just the way you want it to. Maybe it will, but having a back up plan is key. Missprincess, I think educating yourself is the best thing that you can do, because you never know if you'll need it. There's nothing worse than going out into the working world in your middle ages when you have never worked for real a day in your life.

Thanks for your input, inuzuki :) I could use some back-up on this...

Well then she is really not helping to knock out the stereotype that women should be housewives while men work to maintain their families.

It's 2010 and there're still lots of people who think that's how it should be.

The underlined part of the text is true. I don't share her thinking but she's making a valid point there.

Your child is your child for ever-- not just for a few years.

I know that. When did I say otherwise?

A child is a man's child forever as well. They should have a part in caring for them in more than finances. I love nothing more than to see a man playing with and being a true father to his children, not just someone that provides money but the child never sees.

I understand that, in some families, this can't be helped. But I kind of have a problem with this statement because it's implying that, because Suki wants a career, she is going to just have her kids and then dumb them "when her job is over" when they are 18 years old.... I don't think that is what she is saying at all. Women have suffered and died for the ability to work and act independently of "The Head of the Household" and get an education that can be used outside of the home. Have a say in their lives, sort of speak.

I think Suki, and she can correct me if I'm wrong, is only stressing the importance of respecting those women who worked so hard to our privileges today, instead of saying that it is "smarter" to just stay home and kick your feet up, which, in my last post, I explained how this plan can go wrong.

Yeah, my point exactly.

I want children but I want to have a promising professional career as well. If men don't stop working to raise their kids, why should women?

Men won't stop working because they can't be pregnant, they can't feed the baby properly, my gosh they can't even dress a child decently! You'll know when you get there... I mean they (probably) can learn many of these things, but in time women just tire of cleaning up all the mess after their men. :)

Get your degree and than try not to lose your knowledge while you're occupied with your children, than if you're lucky you can work on career or whatever you want...

For the sake of your (unborn)children don't give up being a mother, because men cannot replace you...

I's rare, but some men actually have done that.

If it's ok with you, I'll be the one to decide how to take care of my children, not you. :)

Anyway, if I'm lucky and I end up having the kind of job I'm after, I won't have to ever stop working and will be able to do it from home for a few months during maternity leave. But I do expect to have a husband who can stay home and look after our kid if my job demands me to be elsewhere at some point.

... and your point is?

@ Suki
Yuko81 is male, I think his comment was meant to be a bit of a flirtatious joke, saying that he could be your house-hubby ;)

Also, Suki, I know my comment about hating women in the previous thread irritated you, but I meant I dislike women who think they don't have to do anything for themselves (except have babies, whoo-de-freakin'-doo~ what effective human beings) because they posses vaginas D: It's funny that you said "you're chosing the lifestyle women have fought to get rid of for so long" because I actually came close to saying something like that in the previous thread. I occasionally become a 'woman-hating woman' when I feel like a lot of women share the share beliefs and aspirations of MP, it's like they ruin the good name of hard-working women everywhere! So I apologize for my previous comment, I was feeling aggravated at the women folk as I had a lady tell me how she nabbed her husband-- she lied to him and and said she was on birth control, got pregant then essentially forced him to marry her. Now, she's fat and lazy as hell and she's an AWFUL mother. When she told me this story it was hard to fight back the urge to yell "You're a fucking human leech!!" but I bottled that rage you guys (I'm so proud XD).

My faith in women has come back, I met some kickass women today and seeing how Suki's responses to MP are exactly what I would say is awesome. I completely agree with everything you said :D You saved me from typing RAGGGEEE comments since you said everything I was going to! :rheart: You kickass bro. Glad to see I'm not the only woman who wants to have a career with a stay-at-home husband :cool: Woman like that seem to be pretty rare :( Don't give up your career if it's what you want to do.

@ File 01
I respectfully disagree. In my family, my mother 'wears the pants' and my dad stays at home. My daddy is a good mommy! (Jeez, that sounds weird...) But yeah, I'm the oldest of four kids so I saw how my dad was with babies, I'd say he's a good a mom as any ;) I remember my mom used a breast milk pump thing to prepare bottles of milk ready for baby consumption lol and that's what my dad fed the babies when Mom was at work. And of course my mom got maternity leave for the first few months.

It's no one's responsability to raise a child but the parents of that child. In the end, it is they, would will be judged on that child's actions in the future.

I personally plan to work until I have a child or children, and then stay at home to raise them, just because i see so much negligent of children these days, including even some of my friends. I've always had the expectancy of my husband to help around the house also because i saw it growing up, even if my father came home tired he would help clean the kitchen or something. I think anything women choose to do is personal preference, working and raising children is hard, and so is just working, or just raising the kids. It mainly comes down to what you enjoy doing in my opinion, like suki said, whatever makes you feel empowered or wanted and needed, and whether it be working or being a housewife, it's always important to be happy because it's your own life and youre the one living it.

There we go. Now we are starting to get on the right track of thinking. I agree with everything it's been said. :vsign:

when we bring children into the world-- isn't it the most important job-- to give those children all the love and care in the world. TO me-- we have a responsibility towards our children--- and Being there for them-- especially when they are young-- Why bring them into the world then expect others to look after them-- so many parents HAVE to work to survive, so their children end up either in day care or nursery-- onwards-- ands scarcely know their own parents-- who are always in a hurry or rushing off to work.


children are precious-- and their future often hangs on the way they are brought up-------------


animals care for their young until they are ready to fly the nest.

Don' t have children unless you are prepared to do a parents job.

CRIKEY SUKI-- It seems its all about YOU and what you want. You have so many demands and expectations don't you.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one here who goes crazy over this kinda stuff :) And just for the record, I don't want a stay-at-home husband, I think having a baby means sharing responsabilities equally, I will stay at home if I have to, what I won't do is give up my career if it's a successful one, ever; that doesn't mean I want a husband who'll take care of everything regarding our child though, I wouldn't want that either.

Yes it is about me and what I want since it's my life I'm living... :rolleyes:

I am very clear on what my priorities are and I get to choose how to live my life by whatever principles I like; I believe it's good to be self-demanding and to have ambitions, it hurts no one and it's very rewarding when you reach them.

Hi Suki!

Well, I guess, I was just having a rough day, not the first time, nor the last lol
Although I'm with @dogsbody70 on this, I can see your point too.
I hope you'll find someone who's man enough for you as well as a fine substitute mother when it's needed. :vsign:

@StonerPenguin
I can see the world is changing and there are so many alternate family, I can't even think through all possibilities, you are absolutely right with your examples. In fact ten years ago I probably said similar things about women and men. I'm only saying what I'm now because having a family, kids, husband is different, and if I had to change my state for the sake of them, I gladly did, no matter how much I was a feminist or careerist before.
If you want to see kick-ass women, than look on those too who can stand against their own desires and do what's necessary when it is ;)

SUKI---

Its your life so as you say do as you want-- but never forget that children MATTER. I see the results of so many youngsters whose parents had to work all the time. Kids need guidance and to know love and security.


maybe because I never knew any of that as a child--- I feel hot over the collar about bringing children into the world. It is an enormous responsibility.


Yes but you were expecting your husband to stay at home if it suited YOU.

why should a man do that especially if he has a career.

Yes it should be a shared responsibility--- where possible-- otherwise best not to bring the children into the world in the first place if Career is all that matters.

Many women have a career and wait until they are in their forties before having children. Often they have problems-- and sometimes unable to have children at all.

marriage should always be a shared responsibility---

I personally would have hated other people to bring up my own children.

usually these days they go to day care-- nursery school and so on.never actually get to know their parents or vice versa

There are many unhappy young adults nowadays-- latchkey kids as we used to call them.

ANyway its your life but things change once a baby arrives. they are worth every minute spent with them and give so much pleasure.

good luck in the future. But life is not all about SELF

Uhm, if Suki doesn't have children then children don't have to matter to her.

I don't want children, I don't particularly like dealing with children in general, so why does my priority have to be children?

I believe it's better to have a career and have children, because it teaches your children morals and gives them a good work ethic. It's possible to have a good balance. It doesn't have to be work OR children.

I only care about my career, I don't care about marriage or children. If that makes me selfish, then I'm selfish. But England is already overpopulated, so by not having children I'm doing it a favour. :)

I'm not sure you guys are even reading what Suki is writing. It's Kinda funny how you only see and get from her posts what you want to see. At what time did she say anything about "getting and Substitute Mother?" And who says that a man gets to keep his career and a woman doesn't. (which she JUST SAID she'd be able to work at home if need be and get time off). Are you just trying to find reasons to put her down for her beliefs or are you just not seeing what she is really writing. Maybe both?

My mom was a single parent and I assure you she worked her but off to make ends meet. But I never doubted the love she had for me because she worked. I admired the working woman and, even though I want children and vow to be the best mother I can be, I will work (although, being a writer I will work at home, traveling occasionally).

Whether to work or not after having kids is something that's up to the individual. But don't think for a minute that children raised by stay at home moms or dads always turn out better behaved or get into less trouble. No... That is not the way of it. Like I said before, women have died for the opportunity that is so easily thrown away by people who don't know how to do both (which can be done - I've seen it) or put men on this pedestal saying "why should a man do that especially if he has a career" REALLY? WHY NOT!? What about if the woman's career is more promising? What about if she makes more money? Why is she expected to give that up after suffering (happily I'm sure) through pregnancy and child birth and the man gets to just have fun living life and following his dream?

I understand about not wanting others to take of your child (My mother always said, "No one can take care of my baby like me) and I'm all for that. A firm believer. But the days of inequality are over. Women have just as much right to follow there dreams if that is their wish.

LOL Why is Suki being chastized for neglecting hypothetical children? XD
"Yes but you were expecting your husband to stay at home if it suited YOU.

why should a man do that especially if he has a career."
Uh, why should a woman stay home (especially if she has a career)? I find it a little ironic Suki is being called selfish for wanting to pursue a career to the best of her ability (heck, she's a university student, she's SUPPOSED to be thinking about a career-- college it too expensive to give up midway...) and yet MP, who wants to have a child so she can mooch off some guy and spend his money on handbags, isn't selfish!? What the hell? :eek:

My mom didn't force my dad to give up his career, my mom's career was just more promising than my father's (haha, my mom is so much smarter than my dad it's not funny :mtongue: ). It was a decision they made together as partners. So yeah, I could see that if my husband's career was WAY better than mine I might give it up (though I doubt I'll find a guy like that, as soon as I graduate I've got an awesome job lined up for me-- I don't think I could find much better :cool: )

@ Miss Misa
I agree 1000% :D The only problem is stupid people have more children and at younger ages than smart people. D: Ever see the film "Idiocracy"? As a smart lady, you should maybe donate your ovaries to science! :p (jk jk)

Edit;
@ Inuzuki
Eloquently said! Very true. (I'm getting a huge kick out of this discussion-- no matter how off topic it may be! ;) )

I'm sure she can defend herself if she think it's necessary, I might not read all of her letters or see what she mean, but I think you're missing her main characteristic. BTW yes she didn't use substitute mother and I use it not to describe hers but to describe my stand-point, I thought it was pretty clear, apparently it wasn't...

And I did follow my dreams in the past, and they weren't exactly about making money or having one of the most carrier oriented job in the world.

You guys are young, we'll speak in five years, when you'll already live your dream-lives, I'm off to this subject. :ywave:

So what is actually your opinion? That Suki is selfish because she's career minded? Why aren't career-minded men selfish?

I don't really understand your stance on this.

I hope you don't see us a silly kids or anything, since that does seem to be a bit condescending :D Well, in the wise words of my parents "Be selfish-- your twenties are for YOU" and I agree with that very much so. I don't intend to have kids or get married til after I'm 30. And I know about the toll having babies has on older women but my mom had me when she was 28 (almost 29) and I'm the oldest of 4 kids, my mom had my youngest sister when she was 37, and there weren't any problems with any of her prenancies.

Regardless of whether you have a career or not, I think you should wait to have kids-- be as selfish as you want and get it out of your system then have kids when you can really devote the necessary time to them. I've babysat a lot of kids and you can really tell when a child has an older parent, they tend to be much more mature and better behaved for their age. Moreover, it's a shame to be young and beautiful, wanting to go out and have fun but be unable to because you have kids. It ain't fair to you or the child IMO. So I shall induldge in my selfishness for the next 10 years or so :mtongue:

Anyway, if I'm lucky and I end up having the kind of job I'm after, I won't have to ever stop working and will be able to do it from home for a few months during maternity leave. But I do expect to have a husband who can stay home and look after our kid if my job demands me to be elsewhere at some point.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------SUKI WROTE that she expects her husband to stay at home if her job demands she has to be elsewhere.

Maybe He will not want that. You had better tell the man you marry-- If you do-- your future plans so that he knows what your expectations are.


Of course none of this is my business-- otherslead their lives as they wish hopefully it will work out as she wishes-- but sometimes Mother Nature does have a say in all this.


over here, many grand parents are expected to look after the children-- but why should they HAVE TO?

Its not easy looking after young children when one gets older. many daughters Do expect it as a right-- but I disagree with that expectation.

Help out by all means-- but have to look after them all the time?

-

Not at all!

Does his feelings on the subject trump her's. I don't think so.

HMM shouldn't it be mutual?

HMM shouldn't it be mutual?

anyway good luck to you all. it is your life after all.

Yeah, just like I'm gonna be the one staying if he can't do it cause of his job. I said share responsabilities equally, that means we share the task of raising our children. What's wrong with that?

Same reason why a woman should/should not do it.

When did I say career is all that matters...? I didn't. Moreover, I said I'd sacrifice my career for my children anytime if I had to, but I hope it never comes down to that.

I went to day care and I didn't grow up to be a traumatized child. I got to play with other kids while my mom was out doing her job which she needed to do in order to provide me with all the best, which she did, so I'm thankful she didn't quit her job for me.

Misa answered this one for me so I'm quoting her:

And I never said I didn't want children, all I said is, AS OF NOW, my career is what matters the most to me.

Yeah, they can't handle a woman being successful in what they call a man's world. Whatever. Bunch of sexist hypocrites.

There are a lot of big posts trying to make some sort of logical or scientific sense of whatever's going on. I think who ever said 'maybe things are a much more simpler' is right. No matter what, people are entitled to like who they like. Whether it's in their race or not. Whatever factors are involved just influence a person's like or dislike for someone. I just hope that people find what they need in who they're looking for.

*plooka plooka*