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But in a society where everything was free, why would anyone work?
If there was no benefit for me to make an effort to, say, be a doctor, as I receive the same benefits as someone who sits on the couch all day, then why do it? |
I think i answered your question in my previous post, MMM.
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There will be some people that feel a calling, but do you think it will be less or more in a society without salary? And who has a calling to be a gas-pump jockey? OK, robots do it. Most jobs are blue-collar. Eliminate those jobs to robots, you have a nation...a WORLD... of freeloaders who are basically getting social security benefits from birth. So why am I breaking my ass to be a doctor again? Is it boredom, because that's pretty much the only reason I can find here. |
Do you think that a 12 year old child who is drawing pictures and making models of buildings he has thought up on his own is thinking about the millions of $ he will reap off as a professional architect when he grows up? Do you think that teenagers who play in garage bands do it only because they dream of becoming huge rock stars one day, blow coke and do groupies all day long? Do you really think that a kid who enjoys maths learns it only in order to count the money when he grows up? Do you?
In our society the labor is forced upon us, since we need to work in order to survive... and as anything that is forced on us, we develop a certain level of odium towards it. Now think about a society where the 12 year old kid who enjoys drawing pictures of houses is encouraged to develop his skills and natural interests, where he is provided with the resources and tools to become a architect one day and do what he enjoys doing, without being restricted by economical problems. Think of how he looks up to other architects, how he wants to be like them and how he ultimately starts to compete with them... since competition is in our blood... so is the urge to create something, to leave something behind us after we pass away. And i doubt that the world would be full of slackers... since yeah, boredom can serve as a motivation as well... think sports, entertainement... i think everyone would find something they would like to show themselves in, but as there would be those who have achieved a lot due to their natural talents, created stuff, they would be looked up to... just like great scientists, athletes, musicians are in our society... that would not let the society as a whole to stagnate. And i know that you would not 'break your ass' to do anything if you were put in such environment, same as i wouldn't... at least for the brief moment of time until i realize all of the potential and options i have and what i am able to achieve with unlimited resources i have been given. Tell me... do you really have nothing you would like to do? Is there no area of interest where you would like to prove yourself? Is there nothing you would like the future generations to remember you by? |
Yes I have things I want to accomplish and goals I want to achieve that have nothing to do with salary.
My fear is that your assumption is that everyone's dreams are going to balance out with society's needs. That's what a free-market economy fixes. Let's stick to doctors. If there is no fear of retribution for having a patient die, and no obvious benefit from having a patient live, why would I spend any more time on the cancer patient as the kid with a cold? There is a benefit from having a dream and doing a job, but what is the benefit of doing a GOOD job? Why would anyone go the extra mile, if there is no personal gain? I think your assumption is that all 12-year-olds have natural skills. What about the 12-year-old whose best skill is lighting fires? The more you promote doing nothing as an option, the more people are going to do it. |
Ok... i'll take the liberty of going off-topic of the topic that has gone off the topic already a long time ago.
Let's assume that what you say is true and the main motivation for people to DO things is wealth. Ok. Now... could you please tell me why we need wealth? Why we crave to have a hue house, 20 cars, a beautiful wife and 5 wonderful kids? Why? I'll tell you why... it's due to the same thing you seem to be so familiar with: Instincts. Am i right, or am i completely right? Females usually seek the man that is better than the rest of the crowd, since he will be better suited as a father to her children... In the prehistoric ages, it was the biggest, strongest, male of the group, since he was able to provide more resources and protect the family better. Nowdays it's the wealth that counts, since that also demonstrates the ability to provide the resources (food, protection) for the family, the same as superiority above other males (though other factors, of course, also remain... some from the prehistoric ages). That's, of course, only one of the instincts that drives us and it happens on the level of subconsciousness and is applicable to both genders, only with different factors involved. Maybe i do sound like a guy who has read too much of Freud's publications, but you have to agree that this IS one of the main things that drives our society... if not the main one. Now... in the society where the food, shelter, security is granted, the need for a male who is able to provide all of this, is logically bypassed, leaving only the 'being superior' part. Do you really think that a chick would go for a slacker who does nothing but sit all day on the couch and watches tv? Or would she go for a man who has proven himself to be superior above others (or at least the slacker crowd... since without a doubt, there would be one, i am not denying it). Even if she would settle for a young male nurse, who hasn't got much of a career opportunities (but who loves his job... since well, he has chosen it), the males would still do what they can to appear better... they... i mean we... would compete in order to prove ourselves... wouldn't we? No, i do not think that instincts are the ONLY thing that drives us... but it's pretty close to it. And of course, our primal instinct is not the only one that counts. ... the point is... that you would still want to become the best one in what you do... especially if you have chosen the path by yourself... be it due to fame (smells like primal instinct to me... again) or the will to improve yourself and become better... if not the best. As for the balance between demand and supply... well yeah... that could be a problem in some areas of production/services... or maybe not, considering the technological development... hmm *snores* :D |
i'm too sleepy for a big post. i just wanna say. Excessum. you're my hero. i'm not the best in putting argument forth, but i agree with your past couple of posts. =)
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hmm to quote samuel jackson...
"If money was a chicken...would the chicken be evil?" Money IS required for a society to function...as is governance.... you can live without these things...but anything involving groups of more than 30 people NEED some sort of commerce... this allows the society to function MORE efficently and ALSO advance the technology quick example...if you understand why just ignore this bit ===== in a small society everyone is a subsitance farmer...everyone needs a plough without money everybody must take the time to make thier OWN plough however...if 1 person were to dedicate all of thier working time to JUST making ploughs...then not only would the ploughs be made MORE efficiently...but also the craftmanship..and TECHNOLOGY of the plough is likely to improve.... however...on cannot EAT ploughs....thus there must be some way for this plough maker to eat...thus money ============================= Money allows for specialization...thus is GOOD for technology the PROBLEM with money as it exsits is that in the current system...once you reach a certain threshold of money...you can use money to MAKE money.. ONCE you are using money to MAKE money....the money NO-LONGER become a reflection of time or work done.... also...in the past the Government...controled the money... however that is no longer the case.... now as a gov. ultimatly IS the people...if the gov own and control the money it could be used positively... however...NOW....the money is controled by private companies....thus this money is used to increase profits and taxes... it is no longer about JUST money...its also about POWER.... bricks and mortar....... ;) dont believe me....take a look at the $1 bill..... take a look at the "founding fathers" 1 world government (hmm bit like UN) 1 world currency (is there ANY country in the world where you couldn't spend US dollars until a few years ago?) 1 world church understand THE SYSTEM...and then let it EMPOWER YOU! also...don't believe the Media....its only half-truths and out right lie's there PEACE |
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In saying that how does Capitalism go against these competitive instincts? Money is merely the system to which EVERYONE agrees to measure material value, currency the various units of measurement that people use, and the markets the arena in which it is tested and readjusted. |
money CAN and DOES hinder technology...
there was a guy who invented the re-usable match it cost the same as normal matches...except each match could be re-lit about 20-30 times... so a single 10p box of HIS matches would last a year... the idea was bought by the match companies...and never released also with electric cars...we have the technology to have electric cars that charge themselves OFF the roads themselves...as you drive....... but why SPEND money setting up free transport for everyone...when its so much more profitable to SELL them oil... and then TAX the oil... if the gov would impliment this then a. they loose VAST sums of money in tax b. have to pay out large quantities of money thats where money becomes a hinderance... its like a tin-pot bannana republic dictator...its great when everything benefits you....but as soon as it become beneficial to move away from it...then you got problems...THEN your best interests are no longer what is important |
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But aside from that.... your argument is so narrow. If money hinders technology then why are the most technologically advanced nations in the world also the most wealthy? |
you don't "believe" in the electric car?
do you believe in "induction Coils"? youve got them on your electric toothbrush if the coils were embedded in the road...and in the bottom of the cars... then the road itself would be able to supply power to the electric car... simple physics... but to place said coils in the road would be very expensive.... and it would mean no more tax from oil... or from the oil companies.... money ALSO hinders technolgy in another way. this is because of the "step" method.... it is MORE profitable to release technology slowly and in stages than just to go to the most advanced stuff right away... (like windows 95/98/me) because if you go to the advanced stuff right away....mr member of public makes 1 purchase put it into 3 stages...and youve just trebled your profits... the technology we have already is AMAZING! and its not like its SUPER secret or anything.... there are things like holographic data storage....buy one of these and you'll never need to buy a new hard-drive EVER... but there is NO profit in doing that...so why release a hlographic storage device when you can make 10fold profits over the next few years releasing gradually better technology? its the same with drug companies....IF they developed a total cure for say....diabetes....would they release the cure? you'd like to think so but think about it... to do so..means that the company will make LESS profits..because no-one is gonna buy insulin anymore.... so while it would be in the PUBLICS interest to release the cure.... its not in the drug companies interests...because they would make LESS profits...SO....why do it? after all glaxo-welcome is not a charity is it? they exist to make profits....so why release a product that would damage profits? the same thing has happened in REAL life with MANY products (dunno about diabetes cure...was just example) a guy discovered a compound that provided better grip and would mean that car tyres would last 10 times longer.... now....you own a tyre company... you can a. suppress this new tech and sell standard tyres or b. release these new tyres...and see your profits drop to 1 tenth of what they were before which would you do? from a buisness point of view...there is only one answer...a. and that my dear boy...is how the quest for profits...hinders technology also...regarding your last point... INDIA...has developed nukes, and has a massive IT development sector.... Russia produced the MOST ADVANCED fighter plane in the world ever (PRE-EUROFIGHTER) in the 70's on a budget of $500 per month... if that doesnt disprove that money and tech are linked i dont know what will... also...USSR spent about 10% (number from air) on thier space program compared to NASA....yet the first man in space.,.....was a communist |
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i totally agree. especially with the drug thing. did you all know that they developed a cure for AIDS? but killed the scientist before the scientist could tell anyone else? okay, so who knows if the cure worked or not, but still, it's a possibility, and they killed the guy. speaking of AIDS. i'm sure you're all aware its a man-made virus made by the CIA to wipe out the african american and the gays. some scientists also found that apricot seeds have the ability to prevent cancer, even cure it. hence why they made it illegal in the US. isnt that screwed up? oh yeah. and vaccines are just evil. and AlphaDuck, i agree with every single one of your point. i even agree with the commerce thing, but still, i think i still like the idea of no monetary system. we've mixed up our needs with our wants. we dont know which is which anymore, we become greedy, we create too much debt. |
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and i dont think anyone can dispute that |
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But if you have a broken foot the solution isn't to cut your leg off. Eliminating money isn't going to eliminate greed. |
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xD uh. man, this would be a looooong explanation. you can find most of this on above top secret, and Dark Truth they have links to actual articles and stuff. maybe when i got time i'll link them to ya'll. its all true tho. Dark Truth have some good documentaries. and dont brush this off as untrue, just give it a go, be more open about things that arent mainstream. and eliminating money might not wipe greed off completely, but it will certainly make us less materialistic i think. |
TheCrimson... you've got the whole idea completely wrong... eliminating money would cause nothing but anarchy.
The main idea was that it's the society that needs to change in the first place... become one where there is no need for money as such. |
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well. i guess so. you've put it into better perspective than sentence than i have. me ish not very good at putting sentences together so it makes sense to other people. xD it made sense to me. lawl. sorreh T_T but yeah. thats what i meant. society needs to change so that money doesnt become "everything" i guess. |
my favourite on is the $1 bill.........
and the FACT that ALL of the founding fathers were part of the same organisation..... and that...is why the election is a FARCE....god save the queen ;) |
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SHHHHHH no its not!!!
the yanks have COMPLETE autonamous control of thier own country and Economy.... there is nothing to see here.... move along....move along :P |
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Its much deeper than that lol. |
i know...
its AMAZING to see how deep it runs..... ....and its all SO obvios...with a simple interest in architecture...you can see it all..... not that there is ANYTHING to see ;) |
Conspiracy theories are great fun, and can be extremely persuasive (which can be a bad thing sometimes... or not!)
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Everyone talknig here is from Europe o,o.
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also the reason your NOT supposed to swallow toothpaste |
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yeah, but the fact that the Nazi found that it made people docile...
idk. it made me think... and you should all watch "What The Bleep Do We Know" saw it last night. it's really good =) and its not really conspiracy stuff cos its talking about quantum physics and our minds. |
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