Waterboarding
 

Do you think it is torture??

I mean obviously it can be extremely discomforting and is definitely an extreme practice but i dont think it is "torture".

Please dont get me wrong and think i am taking a pro conservative view on this as in america, but when i think "torture" i think of nails pulled out with pliers, electrocution car battery style, whipping flogging, brutal beatings, limbs removed, beheadings etc.etc...

to me waterboarding doesnt fit in to this category, but it would be interesting to hear others views.

Even though it often isn't used as a form of physical torture, as in it is supposed to distress the person rather than mostly cause any lasting damage, I still think psychological torture is as valid as any other.

Though I think society views mental pain in a lot less regard than physical, for example if someone's mother had cancer and another mother had a severe mental illness, in most cases people would feel more sympathetic towards the one with cancer, even though they are both illnesses that can't be helped.

I don't really share that view because I believe that mental pain/illnesses can and sometimes is the equivalent to physical pain, so therefore torturing people in this way is also inflicting pain on them in other ways.

Totally cosign what MisaMisa just said.

I'm starting to notice an trend in putting things that really don't qualify as them, in the same category. It's like political correctness, and zero tolerance policy (why in the world would you suspend an child for making an paper gun?). On that very simple methods (like water boarding) while may seem weird/hard to us, is that we over simplify everything and don't make the difference between the actual "things". Who here has gotten tired of the way children (ages 4ish to 12ish) are treated like "adults"?

Water boarding in sessions of minutes (like 12) does no damage to the body, but it sure can be shocking. Mental aspect, is more like fear in that you know it's coming and want to avoid it. We even train our own soldiers against it, so I believe there's no mental affect (other then fear) or physical harm. The question is though how much, and how long? I would say it's more of an physiological tool anyway.

If the presence arises where I may have an chance to experience it, I would really consider trying it to get an first hand experience on the matter ( If I go that far I can't consider it torture, who would do torture to there own bodies?).

Of course waterboarding is torture. Try imagining what it's like going through repeated sessions at the hands of your enemies, knowing damn well that this one might be the one in which they allow you to drown.

Torture is always intended to cause mental anguish to the victim. Simplistic methods rely on inflicting physical harm to achieve this, but psychological methods are actually far more effective.

Some of the worst tortures mankind ever devises are more psychological than physical. Waterboarding is torture when done to achieve the goal of breaking someone, which is what is under discussion.

The reason that this type of torture gains more attention in the media and the world courts is that unlike physical torture, such a Pumpum mentioned, when done correctly the damage is easy to hide from the public. That is why it is all the more necessary to enforce restrictions on the rare occassions it can be proven to have been used.

And as one who has come all too close to death by drowning twice, its effect on me could go either way. I might be driven insane by the fear, or perhaps just resign to it and accept that I am finally going to die this time by having my lungs filled with water instead of air.

It may not be "physical torture" like pulling out nails, but it is "psychological torture" which is as if not more damaging in the long term.

It's very hard to drown by water boarding. For the most part waterboarding does not put water into the lungs, but the part of the throat and nose area takes on water, simulating and telling your brain that you may be drowning. On that even if you did drown, you have an 5 minute-ish window to get oxygen back into the longs before you suffer brain damage (still that harsh).

MMM, and everybody who mentions it as psychological trauma I don't disagree with, (it's got it be one mean experience) is there any proof yet of lasting psychological issues? I ask mainly because we would be damaging our own troops by training them against this method.

You are asking if there are lasting psychological repercussions from waterboarding torture?

This is part of the agreement Americans who have been subjected to waterboarding sign:

“ ‘Waterboarding’ is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body.”

An even more important point to consider is that torture is rarely an effective way to get information from a prisoner. Generally they tell nothing, or say whatever it takes to get the torture to stop.

In general, torture is not an interrogation device, but a terrorism device. "Look what we will do to your citizens if we capture them".

You know what the best way to get information from German Nazis in WWII was? Chess. Interrogators would play chess with captured prisoners, develop a relationship, and eventually they would start talking.

The idea that torture leads to reliable information is a delusion.

Torture is only a sadistic measure, not a informative or productive measure. Like this:

This, exactly.

I did not ask for the political grandeur of torture, I asked if there was cases of lasting psychological harm (notice the word potentially, everything has an risk factor) Side note, how can you say we gain nothing from waterboaring yet, when all the memos has yet to be released? that said, Abu Zubayda broke after 35 seconds of being waterboarded, because of that they were able to stop an number of terrorists attacks. I didn't know terrorists get citizen treatment to me, I mean since we are not at war and play nice maybe they won't find our values so offensive. Maybe the rest of there community will give up, and join them in the treatment we offer. That said, I'm not here to debate the "best" method to do things. I'm simply stating my own opinion and trying to slice threw some misconceptions people have about waterboarding.

That said, saying that "torture/waterboarding is simply skipping ahead without all the information.

That said go look up the (some) memos that where recently released

I am not sure what you mean by "political grandeur of torture". And the fact that Americans have to sign a release acknowledging there is potential permanent psychological harm should answer your question.

It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough", said former CIA officer Bob Baer.

If Abu Zubaydah broke after 35 seconds, why was he subjected to waterboarding over 80 times?

In March 2009, the Washington Post reported: "In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said."
[Peter Finn and Joby Warrick, "[Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots]," Washington Post 29 March 2009 p. A1]

It's not about getting "citizen treatment". It is about getting "human treatment". If we are going to lower ourselves in this way to abuse the prisoners we capture with waterboarding, sleep deprivation, naked humiliation and other techniques, then what right do we have to say we are "better" than the terrorists we capture?

I recommend you do the same.

Yes, they played chess with them, and that worked when they had weeks or months to get information about weapons technology or the locations of sensitive targets. The types of information sought nowadays is of a time sensitive nature, and you aren't going to "befriend" a terrorist, learn what he knows, and take action if that action is going to occur in a matter of days, if not hours.

And, we must not forget that the Nazis, for all their faults, were European Christians for the most part, and were nothing like the ideological religious fundamentalists we face today.

Why is torture used? Is it used just because interrogators are sadistic fiends who had unhappy childhoods and went to work for the CIA as an emotional outlet?

The idea that torture doesn't lead to information is patently false. The catchword here is "reliable", but when trying to get intelligence there is no such thing as useless information. Every fact, no matter how minor, or what the context, is a piece to a larger puzzle, and potentially the key piece.

Once again, if a terrorist were caught on his way to blow up your neighborhood, or the train or plane that you (or one of your family members) had a ticket to be on, would you still think torture was unjustified?

It's far to easy for those of us who live in an insulated world to say that we oppose things like torture. We can criticize, theorize, or justify any view we like because we have never had to come face to face with the uglier side of humanity.

I meant I do not care for spin. I only asked for the cases of lasting psychological harm because of waterboarding. Secondly you have to sign an waiver to play paintball, so no it doesn't answer my question when you almost have to sign waivers anywhere where's there an risk of harm. So I would like to know if there are any/few cases.

I'm going to begin with the last comment (and move up) you made. In what way do you think I haven't read the reports? I have all 4 of them on my computer and will continue to add to that when the rest are released. On that you would find by reading them, the whole "wateboarding doesn't work" argument gets an big punch in the face.

Did you forget we are at war? When do you tell your secrets before an war is over? Secondly I do find it weird that you would say that beheading someone is online is the same as waterboarding. I mean we didn't attack them, they want to kill us regardless of reason. In what way do we become like them trying to protect ourselves? If someone sons/daughters/parents etc. are on the line shame on the person that doesn't value there life enough to do what needs to be done. I don't see the argument we "lose are values" when we even value the lives of those we put to waterboarding. Simply put, we are at war and MUST value us lives over theirs.

Quotes from the May 30 memo.
page 8
"The CIA used the waterboarding extensively in the interrogations in KSM and Zubaydah, but did so after it became clear that the standard interrogation techniques where not working. Interrogators used enhanced techniques in the interrogation of al-Nashiri with notable results as early as the first day. See IG report at 35-36. Twelve days into the interrogation, the CIA subjected al-Nashiri to one session of the waterboarding during witch water was applied two times see id. at 36"

(these things are scans so I have to copy word for word, but in retrospect some paragraph are very long so I will summarize so you can get an chance to read the memos later)

Anyways the next paragraph after that details events where they would get doctors to look over them before the waterboarding to make sure no lasting pain phy/psy would come to them. Even then they would stay and make stop it if something goes wrong. They even go as far to say that no technique would be used if they guy was to suffer serious harm.

page 10

notes how enhanced interrogation on KSM was used to foil an plot called the "second wave" to use east Asian operatives to crash an hijacked airliner into an building in Los Angeles. It also notes that more information was obtained from him that led to the capture of Hambali and the discovery of the Guraba cell- and seven member Jemaah Islamiah cell tasked with the "second wave"

This was all obtain from just one memo. As far as I"m concerned what was reported here denies your claim that water boarding doesn't work. Information was needed hence why he was continued to be waterboarded.

Kinda funny how the world is flipping out because of the US waterboarding terrorists.... Once we're done with the interrogations they're given back to their country and their country shoots or hangs them right there at the airport as they get off our plane.

What's worse?

That is another reason why some people where kept at Gitmo. People gawk at the idea of waterboarding but just don't understand it (it's still an hard thing to do) or understand just how well these people who want to kill us are treated in this country.

Of course waterboarding is torture.

The technique involves water to be forced down the nose while smothering the mouth. It gives the effect of drowning.

Try it sometime if you don't think it's torture...

it tricks your brain into an "flee" response. In very rare circumstance do you even actually start to drown, as the technique requires you to be in such an degree as to NOT allow water into the lungs.

I also said given the chance I may very will TRY it. Hence why I don't think it's torture.

I don't know how what you said makes waterboarding not torture... please define what torture is according to you...

Bear in mind that waterboarding among other things lead to executions of Japanese POW commanders after WW2.

The US itself defines it as torture.

I think that is where you are mistaken.
It DOES harm the other, and YES, psychologically. Thus making it torture.
You are being forced. Torture.
You are afraid of being killed. Torture.

It does not require an uhappy childhood to become egotistical, power hungry and/or sadistic. A lot of it just internal wiring. But your description of the possible real motives of the interrogators is highly probable.

The problem with this is that far too much time, effort and expense is wasted following leads obtained in such highly unreliable means such as torture. And then there are the innocent people who lives are thrown into upheaval by the red herrings being chased down.

(Just some thoughts from one who's life has not always been so insulated, but is thankful it is now.)

Slight problem here! The people who are administering this torture have little incentive to assure that the "safe degree" is maintained. Nor is a medical history of the subjects comprehensive enough to rule out their body reactiing in a manner that would induce death, despite the water only filling the expected passages. This is a high a risk, possibly more, as playing with autostrangulation - which despite the medical analysis to the contrary kills many people every year.

As for the "flee" response not being damaging - INCORRECT. You need more case study on condition responses if you believe this. The research did not stop with Pavlov. Repeated autonomic programing of such reactions has proven reliably damaging (sometimes deadly) on a consistent basis.

Hey, Ronin, you left out the Japanese/Korean/Chinese conflicts. But you are right. Rarely are civilian atrocities not part of armed conflict. America is one of the few countries in the world where that side effect of war has been somewhat limited. But rarely are most "civilians" actually not contributing to their country's war effort - though sometimes it is against their will.

The Convention Against Torture prohibits practices that constitute the intentional infliction of “severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.” The federal torture statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2340A, similarly prohibits acts outside the United States that are specifically intended to cause “severe physical or mental pain or suffering.”

Waterboarding is torture. It causes severe physical suffering in the form of reflexive choking, gagging, and the feeling of suffocation. It may cause severe pain in some cases. If uninterrupted, waterboarding will cause death by suffocation. It is also foreseeable that waterboarding, by producing an experience of drowning, will cause severe mental pain and suffering. The technique is a form of mock execution by suffocation with water. The process incapacitates the victim from drawing breath, and causes panic, distress, and terror of imminent death. Many victims of waterboarding suffer prolonged mental harm for years and even decades afterward.

Open Letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales | Human Rights Watch

This was a part of a letter sent to then Atty. General Gonzales in 2006 by a long list of over 100 law professors.

Notice in the definition of "torture" no where is "long term effects" stated, simply “severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental.”

Technically could it not be then that simply shouting abuse at someone could be defined as torture if that person were to suffer long term pschycological problems?? im thinking of high school bullying etc. some of that causes long term suffering for its victims - but then could that be describe as torture ?

plus i have never heard that the US itself punished people for waterboarding in previous conflicts - thats news to me !

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described - ABC News

Click the link for the full story. I won't post it all.

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described Sources Say Agency's Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes to Death
By BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO
Nov. 18, 2005

Harsh interrogation techniques authorized by top officials of the CIA have led to questionable confessions and the death of a detainee since the techniques were first authorized in mid-March 2002, ABC News has been told by former and current intelligence officers and supervisors.

They say they are revealing specific details of the techniques, and their impact on confessions, because the public needs to know the direction their agency has chosen. All gave their accounts on the condition that their names and identities not be revealed. Portions of their accounts are corrobrated by public statements of former CIA officers and by reports recently published that cite a classified CIA Inspector General's report.

Other portions of their accounts echo the accounts of escaped prisoners from one CIA prison in Afghanistan.

"They would not let you rest, day or night. Stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down. Don't sleep. Don't lie on the floor," one prisoner said through a translator. The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album. The music was so foreign to them it made them frantic, sources said.

Contacted after the completion of the ABC News investigation, CIA officials would neither confirm nor deny the accounts. They simply declined to comment.

The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions. [Sangetsu mentioned the need for speed in these torture techniques, and that's why they were used.]

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. What an odd choice of words "won the admiration".

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

The techniques are controversial among experienced intelligence agency and military interrogators. Many feel that a confession obtained this way is an unreliable tool. Two experienced officers have told ABC that there is little to be gained by these techniques that could not be more effectively gained by a methodical, careful, psychologically based interrogation. According to a classified report prepared by the CIA Inspector General John Helgerwon and issued in 2004, the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention," the New York Times reported on Nov. 9, 2005.

It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough," said former CIA officer Bob Baer.

Larry Johnson, a former CIA officer and a deputy director of the State Department's office of counterterrorism, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "What real CIA field officers know firsthand is that it is better to build a relationship of trust … than to extract quick confessions through tactics such as those used by the Nazis and the Soviets."

One argument in favor of their use: time. In the early days of al Qaeda captures, it was hoped that speeding confessions would result in the development of important operational knowledge in a timely fashion. [Sangetstu's argument]

According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

Two sources also told ABC that the techniques -- authorized for use by only a handful of trained CIA officers -- have been misapplied in at least one instance.

The sources said that in that case a young, untrained junior officer caused the death of one detainee at a mud fort dubbed the "salt pit" that is used as a prison. They say the death occurred when the prisoner was left to stand naked throughout the harsh Afghanistan night after being doused with cold water. He died, they say, of hypothermia.

According to the sources, a second CIA detainee died in Iraq and a third detainee died following harsh interrogation by Department of Defense personnel and contractors in Iraq. CIA sources said that in the DOD case, the interrogation was harsh, but did not involve the CIA.

Now that was harsh.

Doctors know about this...certainly the government knows about this.

I've heard about this, these guys are treated as animals.

Answers the question to the thread...definitely a torture technique.

That word in this context is an understatement.

Definitely torture and a breach of human right's.