They are scientific though. Or at the very least scholarly. And you say you take experience.... Isn't that what an experiment is. They do experiments many times to prove something, then they write it down in those "stupid referances" you were talking about. Do you believe anything scientific? or have you experiences every single thing that you believe.

When someone tells me weed is not addictive, I know they're wrong. What are you saying? I should ignore the logic and listen to the "science"?

Of course I have faith in science. But it does not mean all things under the title "science" are correct.

Psychological dependence is still addiction.
There may be nothing in marijuana to cause physical dependence, but that does not mean it is not addictive. Porn and gambling ARE considered addictive, because there is a high rate of addiction - in this case psychological dependence. As you bring them up as examples, I`m sure you can see how something that is not physically addictive can still wreak havoc and ruin lives, yes?
The simple lack of a physically addictive chemical component does NOT make marijuana harmless.

Which is pretty much what I am trying to point out. I don`t particularly think that marijuana should be illegal. It seems a bit silly for it to be when alcohol is much more problematic. However, I will NEVER believe that it is perfectly harmless. People talk as if it`s no worse than drinking a glass of water... Which I take issue with.

I find it extremely amazing and quite impressive that somehow, through my life, I have almost only ever come in contact with that 1%. Only one person I have known who smoked did it on an occasional basis even though they had the means and time to do so much much more. Everyone else either smoked it on a daily basis (daily? Hourly is closer to reality) or tried to do so but were unable to because of funds.

A small minority of Americans - less than 1 percent - smoke marijuana on a daily basis.

This original statement is confusing. I can believe that less than one percent of Americans smoke MJ on a daily basis...but I find it hard to believe that less than one percent of American MJ smokers smoke it less than on a daily basis.

That`s true. I suppose I read it as 1% of those who do smoke marijuana smoking it daily. As 1% of the population as a whole, it is a bit more realistic.

Honestly, all of these points are valid points.

Marijuana, though, (eaten, smoked, whatever) is no more addictive then television... Sure, television is addicting... but it also hasn't been around since the beginning of time and isn't a valuable resource!


Benefits of hemp & herbal cannabis:

Ships & Sailors
Ninety percent of all ships’ sails (since before the Phoenicians, from at least the 5th century B.C. until long after the invention and commercialization of steam ships, mid-to late-19th century) were made from hemp.


Textiles & Fabrics
Until the 1880s in America (and until the 20th century in most of the rest of the world), 80% of all textiles and fabrics used for clothing, tents, bed sheets and linens,* rugs, drapes, quilts, towels, diapers, etc., and even our flag, “Old Glory,” were principally made from fibers of cannabis.


Fiber & Pulp Paper
Until 1883, from 75-90% of all paper in the world was made with cannabis hemp fiber including that for books, Bibles, maps, paper money, stocks and bonds, newspapers, etc. The Gutenberg Bible (in the 15th century); Pantagruel and the Herb pantagruelion, Rabelais (16th century); King James Bible (17th century); Thomas Paine’s pamphlets, The Rights of Man, Common Sense, The Age of Reason (18th century); the works of Fitz Hugh Ludlow, Mark Twain, Victor Hugo, Alexander Dumas; Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland (19th century); and just about everything else was printed on hemp paper.


Rope, Twine & Cordage
Virtually every city and town (from time out of mind) in the world had an industry making hemp rope. Russia, however, was the world’s largest producer and best-quality manufacturer, supplying 80% of the Western world’s hemp from 1640 until 1940.


Art Canvas
Hemp is the perfect archival medium. The paintings of Van Gogh, Gainsborough, Rembrandt, etc., were primarily painted on hemp canvas, as were practically all canvas paintings.

In fact, the very world canvas comes from the word "cannabis". (Middle English canevas, from Old French and from Medieval Latin canavsium, both ultimately from Latin cannabis, hemp; see cannabis.)


Paints & Varnishes
For instance, in 1935 alone, 116 million pounds (58,000 tons*) of hempseed were used in America just for paint and varnish. The hemp drying oil business went principally to DuPont petro-chemicals.


Lighting Oil
Hempseed oil lit the lamps of the legendary Aladdin, Abraham the prophet, and in real life, Abraham Lincoln.


Biomass Energy
In the early 1900s, Henry Ford and other futuristic, organic, engineering geniuses recognized (as their intellectual, scientific heirs still do today) an important point, that up to 90% of all fossil fuel used in the world today (coal, oil, natural gas, etc.) should long ago have been replaced with biomass such as: cornstalks, cannabis, waste paper and the like.


Henry Ford smashing (to no avail) his car made out of durable hemp fibers.


Medicine
From 1842 through the 1890s, extremely strong marijuana (then known as cannabis extractums) and hashish extracts, tinctures and elixirs were routinely the second and third most-used medicines in America for humans (from birth, through childhood, to old age) and in veterinary medicine until the 1920s and longer.



The U.S. Pharmacopoeia indicated that cannabis should be used for treating such ailments as: fatigue, fits of coughing, rheumatism, asthma, delirium tremens, migraine headaches and the cramps and depressions associated with menstruation. (Professor William EmBoden, Professor of Narcotic Botany, California State University, Northridge.)


Food Oils & Protein
Hempseed can be pressed for its highly nutritious vegetable oil, which contains the highest amount of essential fatty acids in the plant kingdom. These essential oils are responsible for our immune responses and clear the arteries of cholesterol and plaque.



Building Materials & Housing
Because one acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fiber pulp as 4.1 acres of trees,* hemp is the perfect material to replace trees for pressed board, particle board and for concrete construction molds.

*Dewey & Merrill, Bulletin #404, United States Dept. of Agricultural., 1916.


Smoking, Leisure & Creativity
The American Declaration of Independence recognizes the “inalienable rights” of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Subsequent court decisions have inferred the rights to privacy and choice from this, the U.S. Constitution and its Amendments.

Many artists and writers have used cannabis for creative stimulation, from the writers of the world’s religious masterpieces to our most irreverent satirists. These include Lewis Carroll and his hookah-smoking caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland, plus Victor Hugo and Alexander Dumas; such jazz greats as Louis Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington and Gene Krupa; and the pattern continues right up to modern-day artists and musicians such as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Eagles, the Doobie Brothers, Bob Marley, Jefferson Airplane, Willie Nelson, Buddy Rich, Country Joe & the Fish, Joe Walsh, David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Lola Falana, Hunter S. Thompson, Peter Tosh, the Grateful Dead, Cypress Hill, Sinead O’Connor, Black Crowes, Snoop Dogg, Los Marijuanos, etc.


Economic Stability, Profit & Free Trade
We believe that in a competitive market, with all facts known, people will rush to buy long-lasting, biodegradable clothes, made from a plant without pesticides or herbicides. Some of the companies who have led the way with these products are Ecolution, Hempstead, Marie Mills, Ohio Hempery, Two Star Dog, Headcase, and in Germany, HanfHaus, et al.


It’s time we put capitalism to the test and let the unrestricted market of supply and demand, as well as “Green” ecological consciousness, decide the future of the planet.





But Tenchu, you're experience with marijuana is very jaded... you were 13. You can't trust science, but you can trust the effect of a drug on an ADOLESCENT?

Drinking a cup of coffee at 13 is not good for you, as well as addicting, let alone smoking. And believe it or not, Caffeine has actually been the direct cause of death in some cases, unlike Marijuana (From stress, ulcers, and triggering irregular heartbeats, etc.) Tenchu, SHOW ME ONE DOCUMENTED CASE OF DEATH DIRECTLY CAUSED BY MARIJUANA... I'll save you the research (which you fail to do anyway), because according to international documentation, there isn't one official death attributed to cannabis.

But what I find interesting is that at first you claim it has no medical benefit, you claims it kills people, you can't fathom how people break the law, then you say you wouldn't mind trying a "hash cookie"... this is very hypocritical.

Also, Tenchu, it's hard for me to "wrap my mind" around a law that is blatantly impossible to uphold -- not only that, but the "law" was created back in the 30's by a group of DuPont whack jobs who sent out mass propaganda, letting people know that marijuana was evil and made you kill you mother... and this misinformation is still being spread around by people like you.

I understand that people still become addicted to it. I even said people can become addicted to things such as porn and gambling. All these things CAN ruin lives. But when it comes down to it, it depends on the person who is doing one of these things. I do claim people can become addicted to marijuana, but these same people may just as easily become addicted to gambling. My only statement was that there is not a chemical in marijuana that causes someone to become addicted. The same holds true for other things like gambling. This is why I say that the drug itself is not addictive because it is only addictive when people get so attached to it, it controls their lives. This responsibility is on the person, not the substance.

Porn and gambling are also highly regulated, at least in the US.

And this is acceptable/possible to uphold? :rolleyes:

I don't think I understand the question.

And just to say it, I don't have particularly strong feelings either way on this issue, but do think the marijuana laws are based more on fear-mongering than fact and are probably outdated.

Here in Portland the very first cannabis cafe just opened where medical marijuana card holders can go and smoke and not feel like criminals hiding at home. I think it's progress.

But to get back to my point, we talk about making it legal, but booze, cigarettes, porn and gambling are all highly regulated "sins" and so I hope pro-legalize folks aren't thinking weed would be any different.

Regulation is much different than a complete federal ban on its usage.

But I'm glad to see you have a realistic perspective on the issue, MMM.

Im only saying this becuase Im trying to make clear that marijuana itself has no addictive chemicals in it. I know and fully understand that people can get addicted to it. It should and I think will be highly regulated, just like all of the other things listed.

It's proven and been accepted here that Marijuana is no more dangerous than caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs, right?

Then you must ask yourself, "why is marijuana, of all these things, illegal?"

The truth is, the lumber industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and the textile industry had a HUGE hand in it's prohibition, and still do today.

So apparently we just agree to disagree:

Some of us think it's okay for the Government to regulate what we eat, smoke, and do for fun -- others think it's the responsibility of the individual...


As compared to most drugs, Marijuana is the least dangerous. Pot is, chemically speaking, not an addictive drug. For those who claim it is, anything is theoretically addictive, and there are some people who can become addicted to exercise, food, and essentially ANYTHING.

In my experience, Pot is less addictive than coffee. I have become addicted to coffee myself and have broken the habit. You get mild headaches for a few days. I have never had any symptoms for withdrawal from Marijuana.

But THC, like alcohol or nicotine can be very addictive. If it wasn't addictive there wouldn't be marijuana users in drug addiction treatment programs.

But, MMM, you're missing the point.

Alcohol and Nicotine are chemically addictive -- THC itself isn't. Like I said before, ANYTHING IS THEORETICALLY ADDICTIVE. People go to rehab and counseling for any addiction.

How come I am finding so many studies on the Internet telling me the opposite?

The fact, that THC can be addictive, like alcohol or nicotine, is not a reason to ban the marijuana. Any reason to ban the weed doesn't exist. Even hard drugs should be legal.

Will you cite some pages?


Okay, here is what addictionhelpline.com had to say about Marijuana's addictive qualities.

Long-term marijuana use can lead to addiction for some people; that is, they use the drug compulsively even though it interferes with family, school, work, and recreational activities. Drug craving and withdrawal symptoms can make it hard for long-term marijuana smokers to stop using the drug. People trying to quit report irritability, sleeplessness, and anxiety(38).



This is essentially what we're saying about it's addictiveness... The above could apply to anything with addictive qualities.

It's funny that they say they report irritability, sleeplessness, and anxiety - because Marijuana is used to cure irritability, sleeplessness, and anxiety. ;)

Substance Abuse 101: Is marijuana physically addictive?

http://www.ubersite.com/m/59501

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is or isn't physically addictive, I am just saying it doesn't appear to a a question that has been fully resolved.

Quotes from the websites you listed:


"However, marijuana does have medical uses, and that is fully understandable, especially when considering that the benefits probably outweigh the risks."


"Young adults, teens, or anyone else smoking it for non-medical reasons are suspect. Why? Because these people feel an overwhelming desire to alter their reality on a daily basis because they can’t stand the one they’re in, or themselves for that matter."


"It is more addictive mentally, because of the drugs snail-like release rate from fat cells. Marijuana is lipophillic, meaning it has a tendency to deposit in fats cells, and can hang out in the body for a few days, (infrequent users), to several weeks for chronic long-term users."

"If a chronic user experienced the rapid release of THC from the body like narcotics, and benzos do, they would likely experience similar withdrawals as if doing harder drugs."


What is this saying? This is just explaining why it doesn't have the effect of other addictive drugs.


And the other site mentions the same withdraw symptoms that are commonly cured by Marijuana.

I am not disagreeing with you, I am just saying not everyone agrees that marijuana isn't physically addicting.

And physically addicting, psychologically addiction, I am not sure it matters. Everyone reacts in different ways. Some people do crack for years and can stop on a dime, others are addicted after one time usage.

Bottom line, drugs are bad... but should they be illegal?

It's an interesting question. It is hard to deny the medicinal benefits of marijuana for certain medical issues and even benefits from things like things like red wine.

On the other hand, there is nothing beneficial or positive about smoking or chewing tobacco. However, they are legal (for over 18, in my state).

Hard drugs (opiates, heroin) have no health benefits, only negatives, and they are very illegal.

I think the reasons tobacco, especially, is culture and ultimately politics. Bad for you or not, the tobacco industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. Marijuana doesn't have the advantage of having a legitimate industry, so it is illegal.

i think they should just have a harmless plasebo, give a few people something the government say is pot and see what happens, if it works and people think they are getting high then they legalize that drug and call it pot so everyone thinks it is,
that way no helth risks and i can laugh at the people who think there getting high BWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

For some reason I am amused that some people in this thread seem to be having trouble understanding that there are people out there who think that marijuana is not harmless, yet still think that it does not need to be illegal.
I have yet to see anything from MMM that indicates he feels marijuana should be illegal. Same in what I wrote. But there seems to be a lot of defensiveness - either you approve of marijuana and think it`s totally harmless, or you must be against it and believe it is evil embodied in a plant.

I don`t think it should be illegal, as it`s certainly no worse than tobacco or alcohol - but there is NOTHING that could ever convince me that it is as natural and harmless as a mountain stream. And no, it`s not me being tricked by misinformation - it`s the result of having a mother who was a dealer.

lol XD my dads ex was a herowin addict

Sorry if I seemed defensive to either Nyororin or MMM, though I frequently acknowledged your comments and even complimented MMM on his keen perspective. On the other hand, Tenchu is once again proving himself to be a washed-out lunatic.

I know Marijuana to be relatively addictive. Though all the negative things I've seen with weed are a result of it's illegality.

Honestly, the reason I'm so "defensive" on the issue is because the D.A.R.E. program and the Christian organization that managed my (Christian) elementary school convinced me that Marijuana was equally as dangerous as Heroin or Cocaine. Later in my life, I realized this was a blatant lie. I've had dozens of friends and relatives fall victim to drug addiction (including my own parents), but it seems to me the ones that are successful were the pot heads! Yep, I said it. But this is my personal situation.

Now, a lot of my friends from my graduating class are working $20+ jobs, most of them quit smoking immediately without any negative repercussions. Now the vast majority of my friends aren't smokers (and some who have never smoked).

And MMM, it's not impossible for there to be a legitimate Cannabis industry -- As you said, Portland just opened up a cafe for medical use. This is, if I'm not mistaken, a legitimate and taxed industry.


I'm not insisting everyone in the world smokes pot, but I find it a little strange that a plant with so many uses (this cannot be denied) is being blacklisted without much evidence to the contrary!

There is no reason to apologize to me Burkhartdesu. I don't think you responded unreasonably to anything I said.

There certainly could be a legitimate cannabis industry. I doubt it would ever be as large as the tobacco industry, but who knows. As tobacco slowly gets elbowed out maybe those tobacco fields could be turned into hemp fields. Wouldn't that be something?

:vsign:

The truth is, legitimate studies show that coffee is more dangerous than marijuana if we go by the direct deaths caused by it. Going further, by that logic, video games are more dangerous. People have died for playing world of warcraft nonstop. No need to get into the deaths undeniably caused by smoking carcinogenic tobacco (sprayed with radioactive insecticides) and alcohol abuse. There isn't a single proven death caused by marijuana smoking in history. All there is today against marijuana is 100% unfounded hyperbole, questionable personal anecdotes and urban myths. And for it being harmless, a mountain of legitimate evidence.

There has never been a death certificate that has listed Marijuana as a cause or contributed to a death (even car accidents because they can't pinpoint the time it was ingested). I worked for the Coroner and even the doctors who worked there said Marijuana was the least dangerous drug out there including caffine.
Bottom line is, if it hurts no one else why shouldn't the person decide on what he or she puts in their body? Isn't that what freedom is?

The tobacco companies will tell you there is no way to prove that anyone has died due to smoking cigarettes either. It only took America 40 years longer than it should have to figure that out.

Please give some links to those studies showing coffee is more dangerous than marijuana.

The fact that marijuana is smoked means that the user is inhaling (and holding) smoke in their lungs. Unless you are growing your own, you have no idea what pesticides (radioactive or not) are used to grow your weed. I trust Mexican drug cartels about as much as corporate tobacco growers with keeping my health as a priority.

If marijuana is so safe, why are there so many ER visits in the US every year. (One figure I found was over 240,000.) Are there stats for coffee related visits to the ER that don't involve burns?

TOBACCO = 340,000 to 450,000 deaths

ALCOHOL = 150,000+
(Not including 50% of all highway deaths and 65% of all murders)

ASPIRIN = 180 to 1,000+ (Including deliberate overdose)

CAFFEINE = 1,000 to 10,000 (From stress, ulcers, and triggering irregular heartbeats, etc.)

"LEGAL" DRUG OVERDOSE = 14,000 to 27,000 (Deliberate or accidental) from legal, prescribed or patent medicines and/or mixing with alcohol - e.g. Valium/alcohol

ILLICIT DRUG OVERDOSE = 3,800 to 5,200 (Deliberate or accidental) from all illegal drugs.

MARIJUANA = 0

SOURCE:
Cancer Study, UCLA; U.S. Funded ($6 million), First & Second Jamaican Studies, 1968 to 1974; Costa Rican Studies, 1980 to 1982; et al. LOWEST TOXICITY 100% of the studies done at dozens of American universities and research facilities show pot toxicity does not exist. Medical history does not record anyone dying from an overdose of marijuana. (UCLA, Harvard, Temple, etc.)

----

Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Withdrawl

Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Overuse and abuse

Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Caffeine intoxication

Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Sleep disorders

I don't know what the context is for those numbers. What do they represent?

Average annual deaths from 1968 - 1982 from the above listed substances -- statistics were gathered by a U.S. funded UCLA study on the effects of drugs.


Also:

Isn't this just another reason to legalize it? The same happened with tainted alcohol during it's prohibition.

Putting a patent on a weed is not simple, that's why they won't legalize it. But if the prohibition just plain didn't exist, people could grow their own. Cannabis grows as easily as tomatoes and can be harvested more frequently.

Thanks, I didn't know what the numbers meant. It's interesting that the death number is touted quite a bit, but I wonder what the ER visit rate is.

And in a way I think it is another reason to legalize it. Though, again, I trust the drug cartels of Mexico with my lung health as much as I trust the corporate tobacco growers.

Growing your own is legal to a certain degree here if you have a medical card. I would wonder if that would be legal if regulated legalized marijuana became a reality in the US.

This argument and the facts we're all laying out are actually outdated (on both sides of the argument).

California, Canada, and parts of Europe have great economies as a result of the hemp industry, and the marijuana industry.

The magnitude of marijuana use is so more wide spread that there is no possible way to regulate the international cannabis culture.


Truth is, Marijuana is America's #1 cash crop -- and it's about time to utilize it (especially in times of economic crisis)

A 2005 analysis by Harvard visiting professor Jeffrey Miron estimates that if the United States legalized marijuana, the country would save $7.7 billion in law enforcement costs and could generated as much as $6.2 billion annually if marijuana were taxed like alcohol or tobacco.


> Marijuana Called Top U.S. Cash Crop - ABC News

> Marijuana Production: Comparison with other Cash Crops





1938 Popular Mechanics article



It's the same in Alaska, but the medical card is not required.

This is not true.

Weed will kill you eventually. It's the same as tobacco, and will destroy your lungs.

Yes, there are other ways of using it, but they're not popular and not the reality.

Most people who smoke weed also smoke tobacco, and thus I imagine the cancer they die from is blamed on the tobacco. Even if you smoke weed without tobacco, you will eventually become sick.

Smoke is a free radical; it causes cancer.

Common sense is not prevailing on this thread. I'm done.

I just urge others, especially young ones, just stay in school and don't go out at night. Don't go and party and get wasted. It might seem fun at the time, but you'll regret that stupid stuff. Don't listen to these people trying to legalize things like this; they're seeking a personal agenda, and do not have the interests of everyone as a whole in mind.

This I can agree with.

I still take issue with the 100% harmless stance.

Not a direct cause of death does NOT mean totally harmless. There are tons of things in the world that may not directly kill you, but which are still not harmless. Death is certainly not the only definition of "harm".

If someone wants to bring up World of Warcraft as an example of something more harmful than marijuana, I have to shake my head. WOW certainly isn`t directly causing anyone`s death either - just like marijuana doesn`t. What killed the WOW players was not the game, but exhaustion. I am completely sure that no one has "World of Warcraft" or "video games" listed as their cause of death.

But that still doesn`t mean there isn`t a potential to be harmful to that person`s life.

I agree that there is no real reason for it to be illegal. I will never say it is harmless or that it is not at all addictive.