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mercedesjin 12-14-2009 11:19 AM
Quick question: racist USA stereotypes in Japan?
 
Hi everyone,
I'm working on a project for class, and I need help! I'm trying to figure out if racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans are popular in Japan. I've seen racist stereotypes of black people, but never of Native Americans... and yet, for my project, I see in the Japanese version of Peter Pan that it's stocked full of racist Native American stereotypes. (For example, "red man.") But, if this stereotype isn't popular in Japan, then how will the Japanese audience understand the "red man" stereotype?

What do you guys think? Is the "red mad" stereotype more understood than I think it is?

And feel free to discuss any other racist USA stereotypes seen in Japan. It's an interesting subject. :vsign:

ozkai 12-14-2009 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789282)
Hi everyone,
I'm working on a project for class, and I need help! I'm trying to figure out if racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans are popular in Japan. I've seen racist stereotypes of black people, but never of Native Americans... and yet, for my project, I see in the Japanese version of Peter Pan that it's stocked full of racist Native American stereotypes. (For example, "red man.") But, if this stereotype isn't popular in Japan, then how will the Japanese audience understand the "red man" stereotype?

What do you guys think? Is the "red mad" stereotype more understood than I think it is?

And feel free to discuss any other racist USA stereotypes seen in Japan. It's an interesting subject. :vsign:
I think you may be better our projecting on "racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans in America".

Really, I can't imagine why you would be wondering about them in Japan.

mercedesjin 12-14-2009 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789288)
I think you may be better our projecting on "racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans in America".

Really, I can't imagine why you would be wondering about them in Japan.
I disagree. :) I think it's an interesting fact that Disney is international, meaning that its films are spreading worldwide - meaning that its racist ideas and negative stereotypes are also spreading worldwide. In a country like Japan, where there aren't many people of different ethnicities to prove otherwise, it's quite easy for a child here to watch Peter Pan and believe that Native Americans are "red because they once kissed a maid, and never stopped blushing since."

We're in an international community now, thanks to the media and the Internet. I think it's silly to say, "This is an American issue, and therefore it stops mattering outside of America."

ozkai 12-14-2009 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789290)
I disagree. :) I think it's an interesting fact that Disney is international, meaning that its films are spreading worldwide - meaning that its racist ideas and negative stereotypes are also spreading worldwide. In a country like Japan, where there aren't many people of different ethnicities to prove otherwise, it's quite easy for a child here to watch Peter Pan and believe that Native Americans are "red because they once kissed a maid, and never stopped blushing since."

We're in an international community now, thanks to the media and the Internet. I think it's silly to say, "This is an American issue, and therefore it stops mattering outside of America."

I honestly dodn't think minds go any further thatn a red Peter Pan are a Walt Disney attraction.

As far as racism goes, I am sure Japan would be on the side of the natives, afterall, America is not the most popular place in Japan.

ozkai 12-14-2009 11:48 AM
Japanese would take the side of tha natives.

I'm really not sure how racist American's actually are, but all I can say is where I am, having creeks named "Black Fellow" and "Chinaman", has certainly caused many a media debate.

Sorry love, I'm in Australia..

iPhantom 12-14-2009 11:51 AM
I think you should stop having a fetish about racism and move on with your life.

ozkai 12-14-2009 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhantom (Post 789296)
I think you should stop having a fetish about racism and move on with your life.
What are your neighbourhood "gang wars" all about?

mercedesjin 12-14-2009 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshAussie (Post 789292)
Can it be "racist Japan" if it's created by Disney? Shouldn't it only count (the "racism") if it was in something that was thought up and created by someone Japanese? I duno don't listen to me I am not smart.
That's an interesting point. But, I personally don't think it should only count as racist if someone has thought it up themselves. Racist ideas have been spread through generations, and a mother might tell a son, "Asian people are bad." The son, an innocent young boy, didn't think of the idea himself. Yet, he was raised to think that Asian people are bad. In the end, it's his idea as well, making him racist also.

I think it's the same idea with showing negative stereotypes through the media. Not to compare an entire developed society with children, but if a person is shown negative stereotypical imagery, then that person will most likely begin to keep that image in mind and begin to believe it, especially in a country where there generally isn't anyone of the ethnicity to prove otherwise.

mercedesjin 12-14-2009 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPhantom (Post 789296)
I think you should stop having a fetish about racism and move on with your life.
I think you should do something with your life other than trying to start petty arguments on the Internet. :) Unless you'd like to try using your brain and actually coming up with an intelligent answer to one of my questions for once.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but good Lord am I ever tired of having Internet stalkers who don't have anything useful to say. I'm trying to learn. And you? You, unfortunately, remind me of kids in classrooms who have such low self esteem that they do nothing but mutter about how stupid everyone else is while you yourself are getting a failing grade.

WHEW. Felt good to type that out. But still, maybe not worth getting upset over. I'd forgotten why I'd gone on hiatus.

ozkai 12-14-2009 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789300)
I think you should do something with your life other than trying to start petty arguments on the Internet. :) Unless you'd like to try using your brain and actually coming up with an intelligent answer to one of my questions for once.
You have my FULL approval!

I do not think this kid is able to be a normal participant as his signature shows.

I am VERY suprised that he is allowed to flourish here.

ozkai 12-14-2009 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshAussie (Post 789309)
Then is it unknowingly racist? Surely (besides the names "red man") Disney hasn't added anything blatantly racist into the show. I just don't think a Japanese child (or any child) without being told specifically why it's "bad" can know that it's racist unless told otherwise. If the name loses it's context then it can't be racist anymore, well it can't be directly racist. It can be indirectly racist, for example if a Japanese child called a black child "red man" would it be racist? Only if the one of them knew the history behind the name. otherwise it's context would be a Disney cartoon.

The topic of racism is to large I do not like these sort of discussions because I am horrible at getting my point across, people often get the wrong Idea (something I may not have meant at all) and can never be bothered trying to explain again.

I do see however, if in any cartoon, there were only 1 black child was called red man and all the asian children (in the cartoon, I say children because im thinking peter pan) could use that to bully another child. But children are dumb, if they are going to pick on each other it's down to bad parenting. What they say has no context (children will pick on other children for any reason if they are going to argue anyway) but by disney singling out a "skin color" to a specific name I see how it's original context could hang around. however, if it in the show there 2 children of different skin color called redman, children could still use it to bully other children but the (here's the word again) original context would not be there. It would just be a disney cartoon and nothing else.

I can say that my son's favourite videos of ELmo are full of African American bubs without a white kid in sight,... Any idea why?

mercedesjin 12-14-2009 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshAussie (Post 789309)
Then is it unknowingly racist? Surely (besides the names "red man") Disney hasn't added anything blatantly racist into the show. I just don't think a Japanese child (or any child) without being told specifically why it's "bad" can know that it's racist unless told otherwise. If the name loses it's context then it can't be racist anymore, well it can't be directly racist. It can be indirectly racist, for example if a Japanese child called a black child "red man" would it be racist? Only if the one of them knew the history behind the name. otherwise it's context would be a Disney cartoon.

The topic of racism is to large I do not like these sort of discussions because I am horrible at getting my point across, people often get the wrong Idea (something I may not have meant at all) and can never be bothered trying to explain again.

I do see however, if in any cartoon, there were only 1 black child was called red man and all the asian children (in the cartoon, I say children because im thinking peter pan) could use that to bully another child. But children are dumb, if they are going to pick on each other it's down to bad parenting. What they say has no context (children will pick on other children for any reason if they are going to argue anyway) but by disney singling out a "skin color" to a specific name I see how it's original context could hang around. however, if it in the show there 2 children of different skin color called redman, children could still use it to bully other children but the (here's the word again) original context would not be there. It would just be a disney cartoon and nothing else.
Well, decide for yourself: YouTube - Peter Pan in Japanese Part 6/8

Personally, I think that this is terrible negative stereotypical imagery.

The caricatures of red skin, hideous men, and similar bodies make the race unnatractive and takes away from human quality.

The "explanations" of the culture and language makes the culture seem petty and childlike as well as slightly primitive, what with the line, "The red man did not know a lot, but they learned by asking, 'How?'" and the suggestion that "they're red because the first Injun prince kissed a maid and blushed." According to the song, they've been blushing since.

A child doesn't necessarily know what is right or wrong, but that doesn't change the fact they'll grow up believing what they're told. I'll use myself as an example. When I was a kid, I LOVED Peter Pan, and I most certainly did believe the stories from this song.

As for a Japanese child, I don't know. That's an interesting point, because I've been told that there generally isn't an distinction between one race and the other here - "we're all just foreigners." However, even then, if a child were to say that I am "red" because the child put "red" together with "foreigner," I do still believe that's racist. I'm not the correct race the child is thinking of, but he or she still identified me with a red, ugly, faceless caricature with a primitive culture.

TalnSG 12-14-2009 01:56 PM
Disney is not one of my favorite production companies when it comes to its portrayal of my ancestors, but if you are going to use the example of ANY production of Peter Pan, you need to go back to the source - not Disney's adaptation. The original work was English and the racist stereotype was solidily in place in the that work. But one must temper a criticism of the author with the knowledge that his society knew little about Native Americans and what they did know was based on reports of violent conflicts and NA brought to the England and the rest of Europe as either sideshows or novelty acts.

When you compound the original work with Disney exaggeration and simplification of the stereotype for production sake and then the limited exposure of foreigners to true Native American culture a favorable result is not expected.

And then you have the problem of even somewhat enlightened Americans - lumping all Native American tribes into one culture. WE ARE NOT!

darksyndrem 12-14-2009 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789282)
Hi everyone,
I'm working on a project for class, and I need help! I'm trying to figure out if racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans are popular in Japan. I've seen racist stereotypes of black people, but never of Native Americans... and yet, for my project, I see in the Japanese version of Peter Pan that it's stocked full of racist Native American stereotypes. (For example, "red man.") But, if this stereotype isn't popular in Japan, then how will the Japanese audience understand the "red man" stereotype?

What do you guys think? Is the "red mad" stereotype more understood than I think it is?

And feel free to discuss any other racist USA stereotypes seen in Japan. It's an interesting subject. :vsign:
Of course you have :rolleyes:

MMM 12-14-2009 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789293)
America is not the most popular place in Japan.
What is the basis for this statement?

iPhantom 12-14-2009 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789298)
What are your neighbourhood "gang wars" all about?
Huh? You make no sense now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789300)
I think you should do something with your life other than trying to start petty arguments on the Internet. :) Unless you'd like to try using your brain and actually coming up with an intelligent answer to one of my questions for once.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but good Lord am I ever tired of having Internet stalkers who don't have anything useful to say. I'm trying to learn. And you? You, unfortunately, remind me of kids in classrooms who have such low self esteem that they do nothing but mutter about how stupid everyone else is while you yourself are getting a failing grade.

WHEW. Felt good to type that out. But still, maybe not worth getting upset over. I'd forgotten why I'd gone on hiatus.
LOL, we (yes plenty of members) have been debating for you over racism in how many threads? 3, 4? I can't believe you still think I never gave you a valid argument after all that talk we had. You just won't accept that you're obsessed.

http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...-bullying.html
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/site...ne-sexism.html
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...39-n-word.html
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/rela...ying-home.html
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...pes-japan.html
http://www.japanforum.com/forum/gene...oming-%22.html

Half of your threads are about sexism and racism. All your posts are controversial and you disagree even when proven wrong. I hate to debate with you, as proven in all the links above. Go read if you forgot how many times I replied there.

Also, don't get encouraged by a fail troll like ozkai. He's one of the cancers of JF, kinda like VG was, after all he was her only supporter.

Salvanas 12-14-2009 09:03 PM
I would just like to point out that worrying about Disney polluting children's minds with racism isn't where the root of the problem is.

We've all watched Disney films when we were kids.

I don't think any of us to this day, has gotten up and said "<Race> is bad, because Disney said so."

We've all grown up, and relied on either our parent's, or our society to teach us the realities of racism, and different races.

To be honest, I would have thought the question; "How does the personality of the older generation affect racism in children?" would have been more apt for your project.

Ryzorian 12-14-2009 09:35 PM
Everyone is racist in a way, it's just more jarringly obvious in America becuase that country is the great "melting pot", trying to absorb every known race and or culture out there. I would hazzard a guess that America has allways been like that, even before Europeans showed up, the Native tribes were as culturally diverse as the nations are today.

ozkai 12-14-2009 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryzorian (Post 789435)
Everyone is racist in a way, it's just more jarringly obvious in America becuase that country is the great "melting pot", trying to absorb every known race and or culture out there. I would hazzard a guess that America has allways been like that, even before Europeans showed up, the Native tribes were as culturally diverse as the nations are today.
Whilst I believe "racism" is so connected to ignorance and non experience, I believe it is actually the native people's of countries who are the racists.

The majority of them have good reasons.

Look at the American Indians. Look at the Australian Aboriginies. Look at the Japanese Ainu. Look at the Amzon Tribes.

They all lived within their homelands and cultures until white man came to lay down their new laws and slaughter them.

Is white man really to blame?

xYinniex 12-14-2009 11:51 PM
why are you ruining disney for me? I grew up on disney.

That's not cool.

Columbine 12-15-2009 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789530)
Whilst I believe "racism" is so connected to ignorance and non experience, I believe it is actually the native people's of countries who are the racists.

The majority of them have good reasons.

Look at the American Indians. Look at the Australian Aboriginies. Look at the Japanese Ainu. Look at the Amzon Tribes.

They all lived within their homelands and cultures until white man came to lay down their new laws and slaughter them.

Is white man really to blame?
Wait, sorry? What? Are you seriously saying that American-Indians, Aborigines, Ainu and amazonian tribes were all racists and thus the 'white man' was therefore justified in blasting through, spreading sickness and taking over, wiping out their cultures, and the natives somehow deserved it? Because that's how your post reads right now.

Also, picky picky, but 'white man' didn't do anything monumental to the Ainu, that was mostly other asians.

bELyVIS 12-15-2009 03:57 AM
Here we go again!:rolleyes:

ozkai 12-15-2009 04:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Columbine (Post 789557)
Wait, sorry? What? Are you seriously saying that American-Indians, Aborigines, Ainu and amazonian tribes were all racists and thus the 'white man' was therefore justified in blasting through, spreading sickness and taking over, wiping out their cultures, and the natives somehow deserved it? Because that's how your post reads right now.

Also, picky picky, but 'white man' didn't do anything monumental to the Ainu, that was mostly other asians.
What I am saying is that when the British landed in Australia, it was the Australian aboriginies land.

Aboriginies were slaughtered, made prisoners in their own countries, and children were taken from their parents..

Now can you imagine why Aboriginies would be racist against white man?

I am guessing similar or different stories to other natives feelings around the globe.

MMM 12-15-2009 05:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedesjin (Post 789282)
Hi everyone,
I'm working on a project for class, and I need help! I'm trying to figure out if racist USA stereotypes of Native Americans are popular in Japan. I've seen racist stereotypes of black people, but never of Native Americans... and yet, for my project, I see in the Japanese version of Peter Pan that it's stocked full of racist Native American stereotypes. (For example, "red man.") But, if this stereotype isn't popular in Japan, then how will the Japanese audience understand the "red man" stereotype?

What do you guys think? Is the "red mad" stereotype more understood than I think it is?

And feel free to discuss any other racist USA stereotypes seen in Japan. It's an interesting subject. :vsign:
The Japanese generally have enough information to have an educated opinion about Native Americans as American people have to have an educated opinion about the Burakumin in Japan.

Either group might as well live on Mars.

It is like asking what do Americans think of Osaka Okonomiyaki vs. Hiroshima Okonomiyaki.

There is no context, so there is no educated opinion.

What do Japanese think of Native Americans?

Probably as much as Americas think of Ainu.

"Who is that? How does it affect me? Why should I care?"

It's a noble project but a lost cause. It is very difficult to make people care about people out of their sphere of existence.

xyzone 12-15-2009 08:47 AM
Indeed. HOW would they know??? (get it?)

Columbine 12-15-2009 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789642)
What I am saying is that when the British landed in Australia, it was the Australian aboriginies land.

Aboriginies were slaughtered, made prisoners in their own countries, and children were taken from their parents..

Now can you imagine why Aboriginies would be racist against white man?

I am guessing similar or different stories to other natives feelings around the globe.
Ok, that's what I hoped you had meant, and I agree, such people have a lot of understandable reason to hold hatred towards people who caused them such grief. On the other hand, it doesn't really make anything better for anyone, and racism no matter how 'justified' shouldn't really be tolerated.

There were two interesting case in the newspaper just today actually; a town in Britain was thinking of twinning with a town in Okayama, but have had to (as yet, unofficially) withdraw from the idea when a lot of their elderly parishioners objected, saying it was 'too soon after the war'. The Japanese were frankly baffled by this, and a little disappointed. I can perhaps understand their point, it is still within living memory but it seems something of a shame to me that we might have to wait another 30 years before we can make such steps towards closer friendly international relations.

The other was a segment which mentioned inter-ethnic minority racism riots earlier this year in PNG, which was interesting. Certainly it examples how racism isn't always related to skin colour and that minorities can be just as awful to other minorities.

Tenchu 12-15-2009 03:31 PM
I do not understand what could possibly be racist about Indians... please enlighten...

Tenchu 12-15-2009 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozkai (Post 789642)
What I am saying is that when the British landed in Australia, it was the Australian aboriginies land.

Aboriginies were slaughtered, made prisoners in their own countries, and children were taken from their parents..

Now can you imagine why Aboriginies would be racist against white man?

I am guessing similar or different stories to other natives feelings around the globe.
Yes. Aboriginies also thought that the Chinese people tasted best, so they ate them most. There were actually a lot of Chinese in Australia back then, but the aboriginies did thin out the numbers, somewhat, with their appetite and all!

TalnSG 12-15-2009 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salvanas (Post 789415)
To be honest, I would have thought the question; "How does the personality of the older generation affect racism in children?" would have been more apt for your project.
That would have been a far better theme and one that needs to be examined far more often than it is.

ozkai 12-15-2009 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchu (Post 789799)
Yes. Aboriginies also thought that the Chinese people tasted best, so they ate them most. There were actually a lot of Chinese in Australia back then, but the aboriginies did thin out the numbers, somewhat, with their appetite and all!
I man has to feed himself you know.


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