I know you ain't going to berate me it was more some others I was warning off :mtongue:

I too bark a lot, but unlike you I also bite ROAR :D

I'll give my 2 cents on this.

I saw the Freakonomics movie and thought the section with crime-rate, namely murder, having reduced by up to 50% in the us 20 years after Roe v Wade as being pretty damning evidence supporting abortion.
A good point made in the movie also is that a woman who has an abortion isn't necessarily having fewer children but rather having them at a later time when she can provide it with a better life.

The value of a fetal life is in fact a considerable factor. But how about the value of the lives murdered due to high crime rate caused by unexpected/unwanted pregnancies? Those lives who may have children of their own etc.
And how about the life of the mother, which may well be stunted by being forced into early motherhood.

I think adoption is a more viable solution but if all abortions were to become adoptions the orphanages would be full by the end of the month.

RE - Ryzorian's point that although it is alive it is not a life, i repsectfully disagree, it is a life - it was creatud to be thus. My point is this - imagine for a second that a study by the UN or soemthing finally concluded once and for all that a foetus even early on or for arguments sake at conception IS A LIFE or is alive, and then all the debate about that matter ended.....

would abortions cease to happen.. of course not - so what is the point of proving or arguing about wheter it is alive or a life or not at a certain point? its just a waste of energy.

If the foetus gets aborted - it isnt gonna complain ot doesnt know whats going on - the drama all comes from the minds of those who object to it they have the emotional attachment all going on in their heads... the foetus actually couldnt give a shit.

Than it would be(or it is(?) simply a case of discrimination, wouldn't it?
The fetus cannot complain, so we can decide its fate... ah well, they wouldn't be alone, just some tiny 'things' in the 'ocean' of discriminated creatures.

It's still theoretical of course...

id reply but - ya lost me lol :)

I was just pointing out something in the case you've fabricated.
If the fetus was alive/life, proven by any scientific forums and we'd still allow abortion, the debate wouldn't end it'd simply turn into an 'equal opportunity' debate...
And all the fetus who were 'killed', because they were unwanted or could have caused health issues for the mother, would be unequally treated.
Or has my logic failed me?
I'm not wishing this to happen tho. I only wish for (maybe/in some cases) striker rules and more responsible people...

What about mentally retarded? They are not allways even aware of anything around them, would they give a "sh-t" if we decided killing all the retarded would save us money?, resources and emotional anquish? .What about mentally unstable, like that guy in Arizona? Should we then conclude it would be better for culture as a whole to "abort" those types of people because they can't be trusted otherwise?

Aren't they the same arguement's the Nazi's used to have thier "final solution"? about Jews?

It's why I personally believe we have to have a set, visable line between life and death and what's permissable and what's not. Because the fuzzier the line gets, the more people who are considered "borderline" get draged into it.

Actually I fully agree with this (if not the wording). There are a lot of people who are less agile mentally or physically, and commiting abortions simply because a child isn't "perfect" really irks me. Recently there's a lot of mothers testing for downsyndrome, and a lot who abort if they think their child has it, and - yes - it may not be something a person wants, and it may make life difficult, but there are many downsyndrome children who live productive, happy and well-adjusted lives. Some are the kindest and happiest people I've met, who work good jobs and have children of their own. Other issues like autism also come in gradients, and if someone aborts simply because that child is 'autistic' then I can name so many people who have added to the arts, sciences or society as a whole who would not have existed . . .

I kind of agree that it does have a 'Nazi-like' feel to it. I think some diseases or illnesses - ones that the child stands no chance, would truly suffer, wouldn't be at all possible to live a long and/or independent life - could possibly qualify for abortion, but just for any old thing . . . it's like the whole Aryian (sp?) perfect race. It's just one step behind the whole 'designer baby' concept, where theoretically one could choose the baby's entire appearance.

Although as much as I agree with a 'visible line' between what should be permissiable and what shouldn't, I don't think that's possible. They'll never be a majority agreement for one case or another, and they'll always be people who disagree. It's probably naive to try and find one set of beliefs/rules to apply to everyone . . .

ok i think i understand what your saying however i think you may have missed my point, which is - Imagine a women says she wants an abortion for NO REASON other than she wants. No medical concerns or no financial reason just plain and simple she doesnt want to.

ok now what can i you or anyone else do about that - the truth is nothing and i believe so it should be - it is the womens right and if she wants an abortion or not is up to her. There shuld be no need for any justification to anybody for that decision.

Anybody else trying to influence that decision or trying to "change things" is interfering and really needs to get out of others lives and into their own.

I find it funny that in one thread you say that the people should be fine with severe media control and you don't believe that is so hard to live when the law-enforcement and penalty enforcement are unpredictable and the government is totalitarian and here you say women should be able to chose whatever they like to do with the scientifically proven alive fetus*.
*It was your hypothesis wasn't it...
I feel myself in the dark ages when I think about how you mean these things.
Sure I missed your point, but your example failed too. If the fetus was alive/life from the conception, than eventually abortion would be prohibited as the laws do not allow murder and our societies do not support discrimination... weather it'd happen or not anyway is a different question, murders happen every day although to kill another human being is considered as the worst sin of all.

MissMisa
It was a theoretical conversation...
I don't want to offend you but, if you don't like that we have different opinions just ignore them. No one wants to tell what should a women do with their own bodies, (though I think prostitution is prohibited in many country, and euthanasia is also etc) but in this case it's not just the women's body and definitely not just the women's baby. But you're right it's only the women's right up until 12+ weeks in most of the countries.