Japanese price sneakyness, gah
 

The sneaky extra surprise charges in Japan annoy me so much.
Last night with some friends we went to some restaurant which we've been to before, whilst we're waiting for our food what should appear but some random small tubs of fishy stuff...we expect the worst and sure enough when the bill appears they cost 400 yen a piece.
Afterwards we decide to go exploring and find a small pub somewhere. We do this and sit down and all seems good until the woman starts bringing us snacks....what? We never asked for this?....there's some mad 1200 yen fee just for being in the place- a normal little pub, not a live music venue or a club or any of that.
This is madness. Why is this so? In particular why is it done via the medium of crappy bits of food you never asked for instead of just an entry fee? Is there some Japanese law against such charges and they get around it by giving the food? Why are these little pubs always so full despite the gouging- is there some sort of yearly membership people buy?

I don't think this is norm, I've never paid for anything I didn't order.

Well, except at this cozy, little claustrophobic dark grill restaurant above Yodobashi Akiba. Table fee was 1000¥. I didn't complain, the plate of four fist-size kara-age was only 500¥, and the rest were as cheap, so the total came to about average.

Where are you going that this happens? Feel free to ask before you sit down if there is a "charge". The second place sounds like a snack bar. The fact you have a woman running a "small pub" should have been a hint.

It's not madness, just business. Learn which places "charge" and which don't. Don't be too shy to ask.

It wasn;t a snack bar no (or at least not a standard one). Just a normal little pub. I don't see how having a female staff member should have been a hint. Women commonly work in innocent non-sleazy bars (e.g. my usual, some people I know back home, etc...) and this woman though not quite a mama san certainly wasn't hostess material and was dressed quite normally.
I've heard stories of other people encountering similar stuff in apparently innocent random pubs.

And it is mad, its very unusual and makes no sense, I don't get how they get business.
Yep, in hindsight should have asked but it just didn't strike that we would have to, it was just a little pub, nothing special to suggest there would be an entry fee.

This is pretty common in Tokyo, actually. A lot of places seem to do it, even large chains. What you are usually doing (not always) is paying the service fee. The people running around in the Izakayas don't get paid much, and as most Japanese don't tip you pay the 'seating fee' instead. It also means they can offer the food at lower, more competitive prices. And with low paying table hoggers, instead of the awkwardness of having to ask a customer to finish up and go, it means the business has at least made enough off of them to call it quits and let them stay as long as they like. They give you food because, well, I guess it softens the deal; makes it less direct. "please pay for service, we'll provide you good service and a little something free in return." If you like, the random dish is the kitchens way of showing it's service, just like the waitresses' attentiveness or smile does.

As MMM said, if you don't like the custom, ask before you sit down. If you don't want to pay it, don't go to those places.

Sounds like a standard snack bar to me.

It's not very unusual in Japan. In fact it's completely commonplace ( at least it was up in Hokkaido) and is certainly not sneakyness. Your being unaware of this completely normal practice doesn't make it sneaky! ;)

Take what Columbine and what Masaegu say seriously. In regards to snack bars, all snack bars have women working at them (well, there are probably exceptions, but as a rule that is part of the definition.) Just because a bar is "non-sleazy" does not mean it is not a snack. In other words not all (or even most) snack bars are sleazy, in my experience. I think among foreigners they have a reputation as being a waste of money because the culture of paying for more than just the drinks you purchase doesn't exist really in Western culture. The thinking goes "paying for things I don't drink, ergo waste of money, ergo rip-off, ergo sleazy." This is slippery slope that isn't really the case.

Not all the women who work at these places look like "hostesses". I have been to snack bars with the workers in jeans and t-shirts.

The question isn't "how do they make money?" because they obviously do. The question is "why don't I understand this business model?".

Is there a general average this "patronage fee" is? Could I expect it to be from 1000-1500 yen or can in go higher than that?

The average お通し（おとおし） should be around 300-400 yen for most places. By that, I am referring to regular Mom & Dad's type or big chain type izakaya where you get a tiny non-meat dish for that price. So it is actually very modest and reasonable.

At higher-end palces, it can be 1,000 -2,000, but it is called a table charge and you will not get that tiny dish in return. I have personally never been to a place where I was charged for both table and お通し, though.

For those barely legal back-street bars where ugly girls with pancake make-up sit next to you and ask if she may have a drink, and keeps ordering drinks that are actually tea, the table charge can be higher. But what really costs you much more than the table charge at these places are those many glasses of "tea" your hostesses order, making Japan a rare country where some women make a living by drinking lots of iced tea at night.

Hahaha! Love that description!

Hmm... I wonder if my bottle of shochu is still at the back-street bar I visited a year ago.

Except you don't absolutely have to tip. Its an optional extra which is just the polite thing to do and standard practice- when places back home do include a service charge on the bill though then I feel fully within my rights to moan about it, that is just wrong and defeats the point of a tip.


And wow, so much agro in this thread.
I like Japan too, that doesn't mean I even defend the bad parts of it.

In the Uk, tipping isn't common AT ALL, just like Japan. I've been a waitress, there was no way I could have lived off my tips. But I had a guaranteed wage because my pub had a service charge. Some places just factor this into the cost of their food and drink, and sometimes it's actually listed on the bill, but you always pay it.

What's more you usually pay the service charge without getting any kind of snack in return, regardless of if the service was exceptional or awful and regardless of wether you tip or not.

Perhaps this is why I don't feel like the Japanese system is that much of a raw deal; it's a set rate to pay no matter your budget or how much you order or how long you spend, so everyone essentially tips the same and all the staff get paid back the same. I think thats a pretty fair way to run your business. I don't think this is a 'bad part' of Japan at all.

I'm sorry to say as well, but generally the people who don't understand the system or why people accept it are American. This is simply another aspect of culture shock. You're simply not used to it.

Even so, its just standard. Lots of bars have a cover charge in different places around the world, and you have to pay that. Just think of it like a cover. Basically, if you go to a bar and they drop something in front of you that you did not ask for, you will be paying the seat charge. You can avoid this charge by doing nomihoudai (all you can drink deals) or set courses though at some izakayas. Also if you look around you can find bars that you basically just order at the counter and you probably will not have seat charge at those type of places.

In any case why would you not tip? In places that one tips the wait staff they typically make like 3 bucks an hour, and depend upon the tips of their customers. I mean would you really not tip?? Even if the service is horrible I will still leave 10%. You are just a total ass if you don't in my opinion. So yeah you are right, tipping is optional, like being kind and courteous. You don't have to, but if you don't people will think you are a jerk-off.

You don't have to tip, but you do. It's just like you don't HAVE to eat steak with a knife and a fork, but you do.

Where I come from countries have union agreements, minimum wage laws, etc... people working in restaurants and pubs aren't making awesome money but they can survive just fine.
Tips should be just that, tips, given if the service was particularly good or if you've a particularly large bill (its just dickish to pay for a £96 meal with friends then sit around waiting for your £4 back, even if the service wasn't that great).
When somewhere includes a service charge they're just being knobs, so overly presumptious on your tip. It also really reduces the incentive for the staff to actually provide good service if they're getting their tip anyway.

I've never encountered a bar with a cover charge elsewhere in the world- unless this bar had live music or naked ladies or somesuch.

And...yep. In this occasion I thought it was one of those order at the counter bars. It really was just the bar which had a few seats at it then two little tables .

Tazzy, you are coming across as a little narrow-minded.
Expand your cultural awareness a little. Please.

Japan has no tipping culture. I think tipping is a more bizarre custom than table charges any day of the week.

You say other people are getting "agro" but then call people that employ table charges "knobs". Table charges in Japan have nothing to do with tipping.

Post Deleted.

In America, "minimum wage" is set by first the Federal Government, and then the individual States. Whichever is HIGHER is the one that must be used. Federal is currently $7.25 per hour. Sounds good... but it is not.

Minimum wage in America is very, very far from a livable wage to start with. A single person cannot really live on minimum wage with a single 40 hour a week job. Here where I live that "livabale wage" is defined at about $18.00 an hour. THAT is what "minimum w age" should be........ but it isn't. And of couse, as is such a hot topic in America these days, there is no national health insurance... so that alone makes the idea of "minimum wage" work being livable totally preposterous.

But it gets worse... for people like wait staff in eating and drinking places. There is an "exemption" from the minimum wage laws in those kinds places for the employer. They have a separate and much LOWER minimum wage. The Federal one is $2.13 per hour!!!!! (You can see the "tipped employee" rates here: U.S. Department of Labor - Wage & Hour Divisions (WHD) - Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees )

So wait staff are totally dependent on tips for any semblance of a possibility of making any money. GREAT deal for the employer! Get staff available for a pitance (and without health insurance too probably), and then let the staff take on all the worry about how to actually make a living.

best,

...............john

7.25 is good. i work 14hrs a day on my weekdays for 2.5$ an hour. well 40$ a full day. and 7hrs after my lectures.
and it works great for me combined with university. i make 400$ a month. 200$ goes for food and rest is for other expenses.

stuff is cheaper here however it is not 3 times cheaper, but you say that wage in usa is 3 times bigger. so i don't think you can complain about 7.25 an hour + if you have at least some skills you probably can make those 15$ an hour easily.

Not just a little. OP is definitely one of the Top Three in the Narrow-minded Department among the Japan-residing foreigners on here. He is totally incapable of adjusting to this culture and all he does is complain about it on the internet night and day.

err what? I hardly ever post on here...and its not narrow minded to dislike the bad sides of life, which yes, vary from country to country- I dislike the negative aspects of life back home too.
I don't think narrow minded is quite the word you're looking for here.
Not that you care, I strongly suspect you're just trolling here in bumping up an old thread for a dig after having a few other digs elsewhere.

Well if you did not get anything at that bar then I would raise a stink, but still let's be real here, most of the time we are talking about a 2-400 yen charge which really is not that big of a deal. yeah if you are on a tight budget i could see it being annoying, but at the same time there are tons of places in japan that yo can go and drink and not have to worry about the seat charge, so the solution is simple find those places and go there. If you think the charge is a rip then do not patron the places that charge you. It is really simple, and you do have that option because not everywhere in japan charges like that. So find the places that dont charge or just do the most economical thing you can do in japan and not in any other country I know of and do a all you can drink deal, I have never lost at one of those and if you are really bitching about the cost of a seat charge vs actual drinks then you should look into those deals.