Definitely...if it's a series worth watching, that is, but everyone's tastes are different. This is how I feel about manga. I'd rather physically own it than having to read scanlations of it.

This.
The reasons for low sales in Japan and low sales in the US are completely different from what I can see. In general, if prices were a bit better in Japan (Not the equivalent of $40~50+ for one episode) a lot of people would would jump to buy. You can see this in action by watching Amazon`s DVD sales - when something drops to a reasonable range ($10~20/ep) on sale, people snatch them up at an amazing speed. EVEN IF you can track it down for free online.
On the other hand, from what I have seen of US sales, if there is the option to get it for free or close to it - except for a small percentage of fans - pretty much everyone will take that route. Why pay when you can get it for free?

The same goes for manga - it isn`t that hard at all to track down scanned copies on the net the very day they`re published... But in Japan it isn`t popular at ALL. 95% of people head to the bookstore and buy, as the price range for a manga/manga compilation magazine is perfect for the marketplace.

Anime is cheap in the US. Extremely cheap, in my opinion, if you take into account all the extra costs of localization. Citing costs as the reason for downloading is silly, as no matter how cheap they make it someone out there still won`t be able to afford it.

Japan is huge on renting manga or, in some cases, anime DVDs.

The problem with countries outside of Japan (particulary Canada, USA) is that when they localize the anime, a lot of scenes are deleted or changed or terribly translated to fit, just before the DVDs are released. Yes, big edits. Consider that this is still a huge practice, a lot of people don't like to see this and rather go for the private downloads instead.

People will buy DVDs outside of Japan when:

1. there is a simultanious release of episodes on TV or DVD releases around the world.
2. there is absolutely no editing of scenes.
3. there is no dubbing to keep the cost down.
4. rentals are more common.

I like the idea of buying DVDs but the business model outside of Japan (specifically Canada and USA) is really FUBAR.

By the way, anime licensing to a TV station brings hefty capital to the anime studios. This is very common in Asia.

Edits did happen more a while back, but fans are demanding no edits and more accurate translations, and that is exactly what they are getting.

We are also moving from an era of dubbed to subbed (subbing is cheaper and allows for more accuracy, and fans like to hear the original Japanese) so if a scene is cut or edits happen it is really obvious.

This is a common excuse by the thieves to justify the DL of anime, but it holds very little water.

Or...they want to watch it first, see if they like it, and then buy it, especially if they're in places where renting isn't much of an option, 'cept with the mainstream junk, like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, etc., or either they don't have the cable to watch it at all. I don't have a station that plays anime on my television, so watching anime period has become a rarity for me...but for the most part, I'm not missing much. Most of my interest is with older series, or either with series that deserve a re-release (Yoroiden Samurai Troopers/Ronin Warriors).Wish I could find Yoroiden Samurai Troopers manga...very rare in general.IMO, in the US, manga really isn't that expensive. It's about $10 per book. If you get one volume of a series every so many months, that's not much at all, especially with the way it's released.

That aside, I wish we had that luxury, but, if a series isn't popular enough, it's not going to get a license in other countries, more than likely. I'm still waiting for Gokusen's manga to get licensed and Hunter x Hunter's anime to get licensed. I just don't get why these two series don't have this. I was so happy when Hunter x Hunter got a manga release here. I stopped with the scanlations and started collecting the series. I'm also glad that finally after all of these years, that a good amount of The Legend of Zelda manga series have been licensed and released here in the US and Europe. It's about darn time!! I can now ditch the scanlations and just buy them now. I just hope it doesn't go the route of the Gundam Wing manga (which was also hard to collect the entirety of, due to the rarity of them).Yeah it is cheap in the US. It's just easier to download and watch some series, see if you like it enough to want to purchase and own it. I still see it as sampling before purchasing. I used to watch Bleach. I would've kicked myself if I'd actually bought this series because I got so bored of it. Same with Naruto and Inuyasha and a bunch of other series. I must have a terrible attention span or something.

Either way, it's sorta like how one can rent a movie from a video store and if the person likes it enough, will just go out and buy it to own. Or, when a movie comes out in the theatre, one might opt out of going because he/she doesn't feel the movie is wroth the $10 ticket price and just wait until it comes on television and make a decision then on whether or not to go out and buy it. Same goes with music stores (not sure if they still do this), but they have headphones and stuff set up so that you can listen to certain cds or certain tracks. You're pretty much sampling there too.

The point still stands. If a person truly enjoys something, in other words, a fan of said work, he or she will probably invest in it at some point. Of course, for me, I don't own too much anime, due to the fact that there isn't much that interests me enough to want to own it and seems that most of what I want, don't have DVD releases for it (with a sub/dub option) or is either something older.

The difference is, the video at the rental store and the CD listening station at the music store is sanctioned by the artists and publishers.

Scanlations and DLs are not.

But if the works aren't licensed, how else do you propose reading said works or watching them? To me, it's still just sampling and the people involved aren't making money off of it either (those who may do the scanlations or subs or whatever). Why is it such a problem, especially if people still eventually buy it whenever it becomes available?

I've got mixed views on scanlations.

Why I won't read them: The translations are often really poor, also reading from a book is far better than reading from a computer screen. And yes I want to support the publishers. Companies like Vertical Inc, released more Tezuka manga based on the sales of Buddha which was good. So I actually am very against scanlations. However...

Why I will read them: Because good manga can get cancelled, such as shadow star (Narutaro). The thing that annoys me is that Dark Horse went to great efforts to stop people reading scanlations of a series that they want you to buy, yet have no intention of ever completing. (I spent a lot of money on the anime and manga, which make no sense unless you manage to get hold of the scanlations)

So you are right in saying that downloading scanlations is wrong, illegal etc. but let's say I buy 10 volumes of 20th Century Boys at £100, and then they cancel it. It's a hell of a lot of money to spend on half a story. So I'm only buying it because there is a scanlation. Without it, the only sensible thing to do is start buying a manga once they've released every volume, but then they'll cancel it because nobody is buying it. (Obviously this argument only applies to certain manga, many series can still be enjoyed if not completed)

Like I said before, it is illegal.

How many episodes of Naruto and Bleach and Inuyasha did you watch before you decided you were glad you didn't buy them?

Haggis: Ironic. You would read scanlations if a series got cancelled, and I read them because the series I want to read don't have licenses.A good while, but for the most part, neither series was licensed yet when I first watched them either. For Bleach...after the first arc, but, as I said, the show wasn't even airing in the US yet. For Naruto, I was on and off with that. Usually watched it when someone would talk me into it or mention a certain episode. With Inuyasha, round about when the fourth opening started up, GRIP! by ELT, but at that time, I'd actually started watching the dub since it was finally being shown in the US, so I stopped downloading it. I didn't have anything against the dub, and my mother watched it with me but we both just stopped watching it.

I disagree with this entirely. If I'm reading a series, I'd like to finish it. It's like reading a novel, and the final chapter is stripped away from it, leaving the reader curious. I'd be upset if after reading Kimi wa Pet (Tramps like us) after all this time, and then not seeing how the main character turns out.

So you are basically making my point for me. You would have gone through legal means if there weren't illegal means for you to get these titles. Legal means = artist and publisher get paid. Illegal means = artist and publisher to not.

What you're saying is that if a series isn't licensed and available you should still be entitled to it. What I'm saying is that if I've spent a hell of a lot of money on half a series I should be able to find out how it ends. Maybe we're both wrong, but I'm the one out of pocket at the end of the day.

Thankfully, I think this excuse will become less and less viable, and more publishers commit to series in order to reassure fans that buying the books is safe.

I'm just saying, this is pretty much my only reason to read a scanlation since I prefer to purchase and own them. If it's not available to be bought, how else would I read it? If I'm reading a scanlation of a series, and it does become available to buy, I'm first in line to start collecting it. I mentioned earlier that for years, I've wanted to collect the LoZ manga series, but I'd only come across scanlations. I read them years ago. Recently, these were finally released in the US and the UK. It took them way too long, imo, especially since some of these date back to the 90s. I'm planning on collecting them. At least one good thing, these series are all finished.

As for your situation, I've never started up a series that's ever been cancelled, but I bet I probably would resort to scanlations if that did happen to a series I was reading on and collecting.

I still don't see it as a problem. For my case anyway, I still end up supporting the industry because I do eventually buy the stuff whenever it becomes available.

true true. i bought the entire love hina manga series because i didnt like squinting at my computer trying to read it.i still have it on my comp for when i travel on train or car, because i travel quite frequently, but its better to read it from the book and get comfortable. i also like the actual DVD's because they dont have those annoying pop ups trying to explain what the character is talking about, like " Uma means horse". also the quality is much better that a AVI download.

But either way, when it does become available, I support by going out and buying it. That's why I don't see it as a problem. I may be in the minority, but I can honestly say that every single scanlated series I've read that's put out a US release, I've actually bought it. If the titles aren't available, I can't buy it, so I read scanlations of it. When they become available, I buy it. I'm still supporting the industry.

And that is what you should do, but did you buy Bleach, Naruto and Inuyasha?

No, because I didn't like it enough to purchase it. I grew bored of each series. Why would I buy something for something I grew bored of? It would be a waste of money. This is the same as 'sampling' to me. If I like something, I buy it, if I don't, I won't. Getting right down to it, I grew bored of Bleach prior to its getting licensed here. I grew bored of Inuyasha round about the same time it got licensed here. I grew bored of Naruto a little while after that was licensed here too. By the time I got sick of these series, DVDs weren't even thought of yet.

Edit: Oh, the manga of these series I don't read. No interest and I can read that here anyway. No need for scanlations.

And this is why this practice is illegal, and like I said, if you didn't see these shows illegally, you would have seen them legally.

I wouldn't consider watching more than one episode "sampling". It sounds like you were watching entire seasons at a time, decided you got bored, and didn't ever pay for the parts that didn't bore you to the artists and publishers that made it.

The end result is the same. You get entertained and the artist gets squat. That's why it is illegal and wrong.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't watch television much, and stuff that's shown now, I probably wouldn't see it since I don't get a station that shows it.Who said I "decided" to get bored. I watch a story arc, see how it goes. If I really like how it's progressing, I purchase it (but I'm mostly only like this with anime), if it's available. With manga, as I pointed out, every single series I've ever read a scanlation for, I've bought it once available or either have it on my "to buy" or my "to collect" list since I'm collecting so many series at a time.What's the difference if I'd watched it on television and grew bored anyway? It'd still be the same thing getting right down to it.

The fact that you can't see this is my point. If it's on TV, then the creators are paid. If you steal it, they are not.

There are all kinds of ways these shows are available to you legally (I listed them earlier) and if you can't afford to do any of them legally then you can't afford to be an anime fan.

I still don't see it as much of a problem in this regard. If I had watched it on television, I still would've become bored. The difference is that I grew bored prior to its being shown here. I just grew bored earlier as opposed to later.I said earlier I'm not much of an anime fan at all. Even when I used to watch years ago, I think I was watching more for the sake of watching because those around me did.

I'm more into manga and with anime, I'd rather watch it first to see if I like it before actually buying it and if it turns out I don't, would've been money wasted. I also commented on Crunchyroll earlier. A very good alternative, but not enough variety (I only saw one series listed I'd consider watching and not because I seeked it out, but because, as usual, someone recommended it to me). As I pointed out, most of what I want to see are older series that don't have a DVD release or either series that had a limited release that I missed out on.

Edit: Wow, just thought of something. I guess since it's been so long since I've done so in general, I have watched quite a few series over the years in its entirety downloaded, not like part, and then get rid of it, but it was also the early 2000s. Stuff like Fruits Basket and Marmalade Boy and Sailor Moon S, SuperS, Stars. I don't own any of these things either (want to own the SM stuff, though), would like FB to actually continue the story before buying it, so just sticking with its manga still for now, and MB grew bored. Saw other junk too...but I'm having a tough time remembering if I saw them downloaded or on the International Channel or if I saw them with a friend on their DVD (I know I saw Fushigi Yuugi on DVD...hated it >< and Gravitation). That's all the now licensed stuff that's coming to mind anyway.

Maybe I should stop downloading stuff, even if it is rare for me now-a-days. It does seem bad, not that I said it particularly wasn't. I just wish we had a cable station (that's not Digital) that showed anime series subbed as opposed to dubbed all the time or even show them raw, but that'd limit the audiences they would want to bring in. I also wish there was a station with older series. The new stuff just doesn't seem interesting. I also wish that more manga would get licenses and released in the states. I'm tired of waiting for Gokusen to get a manga release when its anime was released here a good while back (and was cool too; forgot what channel showed it, though).

For some reason, I get the feeling that people`s assumption of what would be considered "sampling" is very far from what sampling really is.

Sampling is taking a small bite and making a choice. You don`t go into a restaurant, eat all but the dessert, then say "I don`t like the end of this course. Never mind, I`m not going to pay."
That`s not a sample, that`s flat out thievery.

"I watched most of the series but got bored..." just makes me shake my head - clearly, it was good enough to compel you to watch as much of it as you did. There is MORE than enough information about different series out there that I really don`t get how people can say the only way to tell if something is good is by watching it illegally. If you are online to download, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from checking out review sites, story summaries, etc. And if something looks good but isn`t yet licensed/released, the chances of it being released are going to go up a lot if there are people out there expressing interest in BUYING it.

If you read a review/summary and it looks like it is going to suck, then don`t bother with it. If you HAVE to see it to believe it, check out a bit that doesn`t contain most of the series - say, some clips or at the most the first episode.

But I`m willing to bet that for most people it`s the appeal of getting something for nothing...

But how can you check out review sites for something that's not even released outside of Japan?Now this I never agreed with. Everyone has different tastes. Just because one reviewer might say it's one of the greatest series ever, another might not be inclined to agree. I know loads of people like Neon Genesis Evangeleon and Trigun. I saw about 10 eps of each (you know, I try to give it a chance), and I grew terribly bored with both and just dropped it. I know NGE was on tape all those years ago. Forgot where I saw Trigun. Think I saw that on the Int'l Channel. Anyway, I don't think it's good to go by just reviews alone. One should watch to come to his/her own conclusion on it. Same goes for movies. Some movies got great reviews that I thought were "rubbish"...Titanic being one of 'em.I can honestly say that isn't, and never was, the case with me. To be honest, it never came to mind for me.

I wasn't aware there was an iron-clad monetary rule a person needs to follow to be considered an anime fan.

Is buying boxsets of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Negima?, Fate/Stay Night, each individual DVD of the "Substitute" arc of Bleach, and Shuffle!, along with single DVDs of Negima? (101 and 201), Slayers the Movie, Full Metal Panic 1 & 2 enough?

MMM, sometimes I get the feeling that you consider anything less than buying every single anime series out there, sight- and knowledge-unseen "stealing", and it doesn't sit well with me.

There has never been a point in the last 10+ years where someone has not watched the series in Japan and posted something about it somewhere. If we`re talking 15 years ago, the info starts to get thin, but still even back then I was able to find plenty of info about manga and series airing in Japan posted in English.

That is why you read not just reviews, but summaries of the story, etc. Asking for someone`s opinion is one thing, but asking "What happens?" is another. Even if someone says "It`s great!", if they tell you part of the story and you think it sounds like it sucks - then you probably won`t be interested. It`s really not as hard as it sounds. I go through the process every time I am looking for something new to read, etc.

But can you say you would have still watched if they hadn`t been available for free at your fingertips?

When it does come to anime, if I buy anything, I'd wait for a boxset release as opposed to buying all those DVDs separately, like I started doing with Cowboy Bebop years ago. All I own are boxsets or I have full series, not counting Tenchi Muyo stuff, like GXP.

I didn't get internet until about 2000. Didn't know much about the internet either at the time. As for manga, back then, I didn't even know what "manga" was. I live in Richmond...not much awareness on Asian cultures here or of junk like anime, manga, etc. It's getting more awareness now, though, but mostly Chinese influences.Seems I am like that with stuff I read, but when it comes to things I watch, usually it was recommended to me, and I just take a look.Probably. If I'm really interested in something, I'll more than likely seek it out, but, if there's no US release, I'll download and watch it until it becomes available, unless, I watched some and just didn't like it. The problem is, with most anime, although there are some exceptions, my interest is mild at best. I usually have an "I can take it or leave it" attitude about it. Most of the time, I "leave it". For instance, that show with the kid...um...Ed. Full Metal Alchemist. I had a mild interest in that. I had the choice of watching it, but I never bothered with it.

so basically your saying if your poor, tough luck.

With provisos, MMM is correct, in my opinion.

Where I differ:
Sampling is legitimate up to 3 episodes, rather than just 1. Any more than 3 episodes, I'll at least buy as much as I have watched.

BUT

The claim that anime producers are gouging their audience is quite valid. Fairly prices would not exceed 6000 yen per episode. 24000 per episode is a good reason for shows to be left unwatched, BUT it is no reason to be thieving copies thereof.

As a sop to conscience though, it might be possible to allow that buying only so many episodes as yields a fair return could be excusable - say, watch 4 episodes, buy 1 episode at 24000 yen when a purchase of Japanese releases is forced. Would that I could accede to that idea - my bank balance would be somewhat healthier.

Thankfully, buying Japanese releases usually isn't necessary and Western releases do come at reasonable prices, $120 to $150 for a box set of 24 episodes. (and I'll spend more than that for a legitimate Hong Kong release, simply because of the language options available.)

Wail all they want, the producers of anime simply don't seem to get the concept that people will not readily submit to being gouged.

On a shelf, 1 anime disc with a run time of 40 mins (+ filler, 47 minutes)
Nearby, a live action disc (albeit possibly imported) 80 mins + filler.
Entertainment values are equivalent:
Disc 1: 8000 yen
Disc 2: 4000 yen
Which disc will sell?

I appreciate you acknowledging the possible error in over-"sampling" series, SSJup81.

I don't know why you would think that. I never said anyone should buy any series. I just said people should watch the series through legal means. I listed several ways more than once, and won't again, but buying the DVDs is just one way to enjoy your anime legally and honestly.

But Koir if your point is that I don't consider people who steal anime real fans, then yes, I would agree with that. Real fans wouldn't want to hurt the industry they supposedly love.

Isn't it like everything else? If I am poor, I can't eat New York steaks every day unless I steal them. If I am poor I cannot drink champagne or fine wine every day without stealing them. Since when is access to entertainment an inalienable right?

It isn't. Anime isn't a right it is is privilege. A lot more work and a lot more people and a lot more money are needed to make an episode of anime than a New York steak, but for some reason people have this idea that anime should be free, even though we should pay for food and drink.

So, MMM, are you suggesting that you've never downloaded anything illegally?


You saint :rolleyes:

arent TV programs free to the public? what if you work part time at a place that sells new york steaks in mexico and the only real benefit is that they let you eat food that was left over? i agree with you on the second half of what you said. it takes alot of work and alot of manpower to create one episode of something. for a simple walking scene it could take around 60 to 100 scenes to complete,then color,etc etc. but then again, why is it bad to watch shows that are CURRENTLY running in japan? thats like if i missed last nights episode of Conan O'brian and went onto hulu.com so i can watch it. so if a new episode of Haruhi is airing in japan and i dont feel like spending $1500 on a plane ticket just to watch it on a television that shows it free like any other television program, i can just watch the episode online. Or if you happen to Own a DVD of your favorite show and you feel like watching it online wouldnt that be the same as putting the DVD into your DVD palyer and watching it. maybe your out of town and feel like watching it.

but then some people justify watching it for free without paying for anything by say its the only way to watch it. not true. Hulu is a sponsored site which airs a great amount of television shows alot of Anime also like naruto bleach ,etc. Why not try something like that? a site dedicated to anime which can be legally viewed and is all paid for by advertisements. might sound like hard work to get it up, but rome wasnt built in a day.

I think if the Anime is Japan exclusive, then it's really a mute point arguing whether or not we should watch it-- even via illegal sharing programs like Bittorent

If the Japanese aren't willing to sell American releases, then power to the people!

So you are going to ask the question and insult me before I even answer?

Hulu has commercials. These pay the studio to provide content to the site. The creators get paid.

Illegal DL from internet does not have commercials. Therefore you get content without the maker getting paid.

And Crunchyroll has started doing what you describe, but it is a pay service. At least they are getting official English subs in practical real time, as the subs are done before the show airs. This is incredible, the best way right now, and it is only 7 dollars a month. But I agree, something like Hulu with commercials would be even better.

You know perfectly well what I implied. It's impossible these days to not have, in all your years on the internet, downloaded something 'illegally'

But you still have yet to answer it, which pretty much solidifies my "insult".

If I say "yes," then that nullifies my argument as I would be a hypocrite. If I say "no" then you have already decided I am a liar, and that nullifies my argument.

I am not interesting in going down a path that nullifies my argument, but I will say I think it is interesting that you would think that it is impossible to use the Internet and not download things illegally. I know many people that can use the Internet just fine without doing illegal things.

If you said no, I would give you the benefit of the doubt.

(Though you and I both know the truth ;))

And those people are most definitely senile and incompetent.

But in all seriousness, saving and reusing images from the internet (which nearly everyone has done) is technically 'illegal', unless stated otherwise.