^ It carries zero weight because it's not the scientific method. It doesn't matter what a scientist feels or thinks, he was to prove it by duplicate-able measurements. Period.

OK. First, Please present the "LOGICAL REASON" why self-awareness matters to animals, and ONLY in case of babies other factors matter. It seems arbitrary to me and a lot of people.

And secondly, you just conceded to dolphin hunting. I have noticed that you have never once mentioned a particular species. You have been saying "whales" are self-awere. The truth is Cetacea (Whale and Dolphin) is a large biological group (Order), equivalent of Cetruminantia, which contains species like cow and giraffe.

Even the case of possibly the smartest Cetacea, Bottlenose dolphin, whether or not they are self-aware is a controversy.

Project Delphis: Evidence of Self-Awareness in the Bottlenose Dolphin

Dall's Porpoise is not a species known for their intelligence, at least not as smart as Bottlenose dolphin, and there is no evidence they are self-aware, not to mention Minke whales. As Taichi stopped hunting Bottlenose dolphins, according to your logic, the case is over. There is no issue with Japanese dolphin hunting.

The method of killing is wrong? Do you have any clue what goes on 24 hours a day in the meat industries of the west?

Not about culture? So whatever you and/or the English think is correct because your culture is now MODERN AND RIGHTEOUS while Japan is primitive and full of faults? whale meat has been on a part of the diet in Japan for centuries. And for centuries there was no drop in whale population until the U.S. and Russia killed all the whales just to collect the oil. After the oil was extracted, the huge bodies were dumped back into the sea. This went on for decades using huge factory ships until the whale population plummeted. It's the western cultures that made the current state of affairs not us. Cultures change over time, agreed. So at some point in the future we might stop eating whale meat just as we stopped walking around with swords. But that will be our decision to make, not the decision of foreigners. Two main points: 1) we will do what we want on our land and coastal waters. 2) if other nations want to sell us whale meat or anything else, that's our business.

If your against whaling, fine that's your business. We really don't care what you think. In coastal waters, what we do is non of your business. besides,the vast majority of whales aren't even in Japanese waters, and as I understand it Japan was no unique species of whales in its coastal waters. These anti-whalers always try to paint the picture that the worlds whale population all depend on what Japan does of its coastal waters. That's a flat out lie. you can control all the whales you like in all the oceans of the world, just stay out of Japanese waters.

killing whales is not human? I agree. but you missed a serious point. Killing any animal is not human. You ever killed a chicken, pig or goat? Any farmer can tell you, the animals know whats happening, to be aware of and recognize danger is a primitive trait of animals. Does it matter? Nature is about eat or be eaten. So, whatever is good enough for the beef is good enough for the whale.

There are a lot of terrible things going on in 'our' industry... but just because everyone is doing bad things, doesn't mean you should too. Battery hens, for one is a terrible way to treat animals. I don't buy eggs at all because we have pet chickens, but they are free to roam and we don't kill them. We only buy 'freedom food' RSPCA approved chickens because they have been free to roam and have been killed in humane ways. I know I'm doing my bit, and I also campaign against battery hens and the like.

The thing is, the animals that we kill are bred and farmed to be eaten in England. They are sustainable. Whales ARE NOT YOURS - they are wild. That's the difference here. That's not to say that terrible, illegal and wrong things happen here, but similarly it doesn't excuse the fact that what Japan is doing is wrong.

Killing animals to be eaten is a fact of life and needs to be done. However, we can kill smaller animals in ways that can be considered more humane. This is not to say that it happens all the time, and it's all roses and peaches. But killing a chicken in a very quick manner, and killing a whale which dies very very slowly and painfully, is different. Neither is good, but one is the lesser of two evils.

If you found a way to kill whales sustainably and to kill them in a way that is not so inhumane, painful and takes a lot of time, I think people would be less bothered about it. The fact is, it's very difficult/impossible to do this with a creature of this size.

EDIT: I see you've edited your post so... here's my edit. Look above, I acknowledged the fact that in some cases, we are no better. I'm not really speaking for England here, I'm speaking for myself and what I know. What's in the past... is the past, and is also wrong. It's still inhumane to kill whales by the methods the Japanese are using... I think that's the point.

I'm spending way too much time on this so just one thing, Misa.

It IS an issue with culture. Culture not as eating habit. Eating whale meat is not culture for many Japanese people. There are only several regions that have that culture. But still, anti-whaling is extremely unpopular in Japan. What Japanese people are against is the "LOGIC" behind it. Who do you think you are to classify Whale a "BETTER" species than Pig? Last I checked, the only existence that can do it is God.

"Culture" is a very important thing, Misa. It's not just music and anime and novels. It includes religious beliefs. Even if I didn't agree with Christian beliefs, or Islam beliefs, I wouldn't dismiss them as "stupid justification". I would try to understand them.

Eating animal meat is, of and by itself, cruel. After watching a video of a slaughterhouse of any kind, nobody would casually say "Oh, that's humane. There is no problem killing them" . What many Japanese people are against is the attitude like "Oh, pigs aren't self-aware, so there is no problem eating them". Many Japanese people don't trust people who employ this kind of "LOGIC". It is taken as a manifesto of superiority, and when you think about it, it IS the feeling of superiority that makes one say this. Have you noticed just how many racist remarks and behaviors surfaced around anti-whaling activists?

Nobody has to deem any animal greater than another. Whales are no more important than an earthworm. It's just the way whales are killed is inhumane and awful. Would it be okay to justify human sacrifices and female circumcision if it was part of someones culture? I think not. The great thing about culture is that we can learn to cut out the bits that modern society doesn't want or need, while retaining the positives. This is not positive.

RSPCA aproved, is that your god or something? All my points of view are totally wrong since the RSPCA approved it! We have the FDA here in America and they are doing a cr@ppy job! I stick to my point, there is NO human way to kill an animal, We killed farm animals and ate them during my childhood. Kill a pig first, then tell me how it's done humanly.

I stand by point two, Japans whaling industry was sustained until you westerners destroyed the world whale populations. Whatever is in our local waters is ours.

I'm tired of going on and on. I acknowledged your points and gave a counter argument for each one, but you haven't even acknowledge that Japan has the right to make its own decisions. That's your fundamental flaw.

So one last point about culture. you don't see Asians going around western forums and telling them whats right and wrong or what they should do. This is absolutely cultural.

I'm not telling Japan to do anything... I'm just saying I don't like it. I'm not even saying you are wrong. I'm just telling you my reasons for not liking it. I also don't think it's cultural, but that's just my opinion. You are entitled to yours, too.

Why are you lumping 'westerners' into one big category? Not all western countries are involved and not all western countries think the same thing.

My dad was a farmer so I have as much knowledge as you.

You know nothing of the RSPCA or about England so you can't really say either way. Have you even been here?

Maybe you are right about there being no 100% humane way... but there are definitely more humane ways than others.

You keep trying to justify an act of cruetly by saying 'everyone else does it.' If I wear to stab someone, would it be okay if I said 'other people have done it!' Of course not. The world wouldn't change if it worked like that.

Then it should be treated as such. Western slaughter houses aren't much more humane. The movie you've watched is extremely slanted. It can not be the basis for your argument. That said, if there is unnecessary sufferings and there is something we can do, I agree we should do it.

You should be careful when you compare someone's beliefs with human sacrifices and female circumcision. That's very offensive.

I guess it depends on what meat you buy. If it's RSPCA approved, it's gotta be better than battery hens (and like I said, me and my Mum do so much to stop that... our pet chickens are ex-battery hens and when we got them they were in an awful state.) We don't buy much other meat because it's so expensive.

And oh no, I apologise, I didn't mean it was a direct comparison. I just meant that the principle of finding ways to justify bad things is the same, not that the practice is on the same lines at all. (Obviously those things are entirely worse.) I'm sorry if that's what it seemed like I was saying.

If anti-whaling activists take the same approach you are taking, and like "OK. Slaughter houses aren't perfect. But there is something we can do to improve it. Likewise, there is something we can do to whales and dolphins. I work on them because I love them". Then the activities would be taken a lot more positively. But unfortunately so far, I see more cultural superiority and racism. There is a lot of damage done already. I for one, switched the stance from anti-whaling to whaling, or at least anti-anti-whaling because of these activists.

I didn't want to be harsh, but direct or indirect, it is a sensible matter when you talk about a basic principle of a culture, even if it is not explicitly called faith.

Thank you very much for your apologies. I really appreciate it.

that says about me, unlike you, even if the deeds of a person were awful and simply inhumane i am still able to notice that they were great. as i stated in the original post in the other topic - he did horrible things, but non the less also great - changed the world and i admire people that are able to do that in any way - change for good or bad, just change. i have no intrest in admiring avarage person because whatever he does - good or bad - is on an avarage schale, not worth mentioning and any deeds he will accomplish will be gone, hitler will stay - a person who we will remmeber. :)

btw..lets not spam this topic. if wanna talk more, simply drop me a message.

P.S MIssaMissa. you know that no matter what your companies say - mostly all the chickens are killed the same way. you know that the heads are cut off? sounds fast doesnt it? yea..but brain is still active for some 3 minutes after its cut off. and the saying "running like chicken without a head" ? thats because they do that..now do you think your organization is still the humane one?

See, this is what I think. I can't be the only one, right? The 'activists' that do the most extreme things will of course get the most publicity... this can't speak for all of them, can it? Or even the majority of them...

I wouldn't switch my stance because a few silly people didn't do the right thing. This approach will clearly not solve anything. To intiate change, the subject you are trying to change has to want to change. Stirring up trouble just makes the Japanese angry and makes them think 'damn gaijin getting involved in our matters.' Like I said at the very start:

Something else needs to be done to correct this problem.

Again with this finger pointing! I've already said they aren't good either. This is a stupid argument. It's not MY organisation, they eat chickens in Japan too you know. There are things to be improved on both sides, for sure, but I thought this was about dolphins and whales? Geez.

Are you a vegetarian or something?

Unfortunately Misa, there are a lot of people who openly express superiority, and even racism, mainly in Andipode. Ronin here for example have already and decidedly expressed that his moral value is higher than people in Taichi's, and indirectly mine. There was a TV show that mocked Japanese people walking on the street about whaling in Australia. I don't know how that kind of racism is allowed on TV in 21st century. I'm not so devoted to whales in the first place. Like most people, I feel they are smart and gorgeous, and I feel it is bad taste to eat them. But human culture and racism sure are more important to me than whales and dolphins. Especially when it comes to my own race. And to be honest, after seeing remarks like "Whale killing Japs!" or an extremely one sided Japan bashing show, I feel like starting to eat it just to bug them.

This was a double post... I did it again.

I guess that's just where people are different. I can understand why people... dislike the Japanese whaling in a strong manner, I don't reckon that kind of thing helps. Not that Japan is the virtue of anti-racism, it sure isn't.

This topic often comes up and in a way it's nice to see another side put respectfully. Often we get people who are 'Japan is perfect and can do know wrong!'

nope. im just dicking with everyone and showing most of the time facts, that they do not like. not to you but others who have a very selective thinking..khm*roninr* khm. :rolleyes:

missamissa. but why can't we put it this way. lets be honest - only way whales affect your life is in the quality of your sleep. thats it. in japan they affect several thousand people and their families.
however you are affected also by the chickens and pigs and their way of life because it is happening also at your home country. so...why dont you attend the problems, that you also admit, that tend to have industries at the uk, and japanese people will attend the problems with whaleing since they are the ones most effected by it.
seams reasonoble, dont you think? i know that for everyone it is a lot easier to blame the other side but the right thing to do is to fix problems you have and then you can tell others about theirs.
how they say...people in glass houses should not throw rocks? :cool:

I already said I look after ex-battery hens, only buy free range eggs when we do buy them, we don't eat meat anyway and me and my mum often do things to raise awareness of cruelty in our own country. For your information - things are gradually changing in the UK. In the grand scheme of things, the ban on fox hunting was only very recent, but a good step in the right direction. What more do you want? I think I'm as justified as any to talk about this. I think before YOU point the finger at what I'M doing, you shouldn't judge before you know my background. :)

It's stupid to say you can't point out weaknesses in others if you don't have weaknesses yourself. Only perfect people would be able to say anything about the practices of others, then. And we all know no-one is perfect.

Racism looks worse when you are a minority in that country. I don't think you have been the target of a racial slur by a random passersby on the street in Japan. I have in the UK. That was shocking and threatening. But sure, I wouldn't say Japan is racism free. Still, if they air a TV show mocking Korean people for eating dogs in Japan, it will be strongly condemned for being extremely racist. I don't think they can even air it. Somebody will stop it for sure.

and i say its a bad thing. we had them also more or less gone and now because 80's are gone with fox fur coats are not needed and since fox is an usless animal we are having problems with other wild life. rabbits, deers and rest of the wild life is now the victim because someone thought it was important to save foxes. now who will save these animals who are actually usefull?

more you iterfier more sh*t comes out of it. youll get back your foxes at the uk, but since they have no use for humans soon theyll spread like wildfire fu*king things up with the animals in the wild that are actually usefull.

so here is the picture what will happen is some 20 years...history is bound to repeat itself. so - dont say its the right dirrection if you are not aware of the outcome.

How do you prove self awareness then?

The tests they carry out are enough for me.

Their opinions are based on the tests.

As I said before... you only think it carries zero weight because to you.. the only way they will be self aware is if they tell you straight to your face in any human language.

It matters to SELF AWARE animals the same reason it would matter to you if some Alien species came down to Earth, started rounding up Japanese people and then started stabbing them in a head with a giant spear. Because HUMANS are self aware animals too.

Are we reading the same thing? I think the tests show that they are self aware. The conclusion even says that although it doesnt prove that they are self aware, the tests make a compelling argument that they are. That is enough for me... as the only way you can PROVE a dolphin is self aware is if the dolphin starts speaking a human language.

The only people it is a controversy to are the nationalistic Japanese who want to retain their "culture" or people in the industry perhaps.

IF that is the case, then the species Taiji are hunting are fine. I wouldnt eat it but if stupid people want to eat food laced with mercury in Japan then that is up to them.

Im not going to be around in this discussion much longer as judging by the flak MissMisa is getting, it seems we are going around in circles because the whaling/dolphin hunting apologists are not listening.

I just want to say that here is the summary of this discussion

Anti hunters
"Whaling is bad because of X, Y and Z"

Apologists
"But factory farms are bad! and anti whalers are racist!"

Anti hunters
"What the f*ck? Im not a racist! And this has nothing to do with farms. I am against them too!"

Apologists
"This is about culture! You are a Westerner and Westerners have farms!"

Anti hunters
"Culture is not a reasonable defense and I may be a Westerner but we are not all the same!"

At least that is how the discussion has gone thus far. Of course there has been some attempt to address X Y and Z and that is fine but its becoming messy because of all the other shit that is going on.

I am only going to respond to points addressing X Y and Z from now on. Any mention of farms, culture etc I am going to ignore because it is not relevant.

Finally I just want to say to cranks... You USED to be on the anti-whaling side but changed sides because apparently "anti whalers are racist?"

What a cop out. Have your own moral reasons for being against whaling instead of "following the group". It makes me think that the only reason you are defending whaling is because you feel like you are defending Japan. That is really sad because you are becoming a nationalist because of nationalists in the West.

You've just said in the case of humans, there are more than self-awareness. So Please ask your Alians to return to their mother planet. I hope by alien you didn't mean me, because I'm legally alien here in the states.

I asked for the "logical reason" why self-awareness matters solely to animals, and ONLY in the case of human babies other factors matter. But in the following sentences, it seems we finally have a common ground, so it doesn't matter anymore.

If you tell dog owners that their dogs aren't self-aware, hence it is OK to eat them, I don't think they will agree with you. Your idea of self-awareness isn't that persuasive even in the English speaking countries. But that's just my opinion. Anyway, as Taichi stopped hunting Bottlenose dolphins, it seems you can finally sleep easy. Just one thing. Please think about it. Did you feel I am a nationalistic Japanese from my posts before you engage in this debate? Why is it we have no Japanese supporting you here? I've seen a Japanese regular, Sashimister, expressing contempt for anti-whaling activists in another thread too. Please think about it. I believe ultimately it's good for you and your cause.

BECAUSE I AM HUMAN!

Tell me cranks.. why are you against eating babies? (Or do you like eating babies?)

Bad analogy.

I trust SCIENTISTS whose specialty is studying whales and dolphins. I dont trust the Japanese whaling industry or their apologists.

Lol I'm just gonna dismiss your point now because it's frankly a load of crap.

As if your the only one with relevant points while other views are irrelevant to this issue.

To be honest MissMisa has much more relevant and stronger arguments than you. I just wanted her to know that in the end, it doesn't matter what foreigners think, we will decide for ourselves.

your self-aware argument is the weakest I ever came across for two reasons:
1) you never gave proof. only the opinions of bios scientists. They are the only ones that say whales have a high level of self-awareness. It's not up to me to devise a proof to test self-awareness.

2) There is no consensus that self-awareness is more important than say awareness of surroundings, ability to feel fear, to feel pain , ability to use tools, level of intelligence, etc... Self-awareness as the litmus test defining what we can eat or not eat is purely your opinion and yours alone.

you can have your opinion just as MissMisa can have hers and I can have mine. But it's no more relevant than anyone else opinion and the final right to choose a direction goes to Japan..

of course you will. youll have a bite of your echo-friendly apple and keep on ignoring what outcome others have presented in your plan.

you just dont get how the wild life works, dont you? humans can't use predetor spiecies in almost anywere...they are just not so usefull as the rest of the spiecies. and problem with the whole nature starts when people like you decide its a good thing to save those predators who naturally are allways in smaller numbers that the rest of the wildlife.
im saying you that lifes here for the rest of wildlife (not just it. also farmers) are gone down because foxes are so many and none needs them. and govorment is going to take action when its all totally FD UP like allways.

so please. continiue eating your echo-eggs and everything else echo because its also a load of crap and i like the idea you eating it. :rolleyes:

So the solution is to savage other animals for fun... yeah. You just said we shouldn't interfere with the population, now you are saying we should kill foxes because they have an effect on the rest of the environment. Which is it?

I didn't say killing foxes was bad, either. I said, FOX HUNTING is bad. By what you are talking about, you know nothing of the actual 'sport' of fox hunting. The majority of people in England didn't agree with it, so it was banned. Democracy! The jury is still out for me on culling animals to save others, I don't know enough about it to comment.

wow..you got me wrong.
having a ban on fox hunting is wrong. we had that ban and you can read what happened - we have more of them than we have ever had only this time we also dont need them. no hunter is going to waste his time on controling spiecies in which he has no gain. so its up to the goverment and things will have to get even worst for them to notice and take action which will cost money.

and really? upper classes in england actually managed to drive foxes to the extincion whith their horse back, whiskey drinking, bloodhound gathering parties??

To be honest I can't be bothered even having a conversation with you, your arguement is kind of ridiculous. 'We should support violence because nobody will kill foxes if we don't.'

Why are you placing the rights of other animals over a fox? Why is it such a 'bad' creature. It's only doing what it's instincts tell it to.

I've had chickens eaten by them and it's awful. But the fox doesn't think 'oh I'll eat those or kill those just to upset the people who they belong to.' It's just an animal dealing with it's instincts, why should it be punished for that? That's how nature is, we shouldn't interfere unless it's something that us as humans have caused.

(This is getting off topic so I'm ending it here.)

no, no and no.. thats not how the nature is. you are so naive.
and i didnt say a fox is a bad creature. i said fox is a usless creature and thats why its increased numbers will creat larger problems with wildlife. wont be a balance and the natures basic principal is balance!

you are so touchy when it comes to your probles but when japanese are doing stuff wrong you are all up in their business. just like with them only reversed. i present to you facts out of my own experiance and you deny them.
good thing you said its ok for others to point them out.

P.S ou..you ended it here. yea. the problem still remains..that sucks, doesnt it?
lets see how you will feel about foxes in 20 years when a rabbit fox bites someone you know because it spreads fast.

I'm not touchy at all, I acknowledged the fact we also have problems ages ago, this just isn't one of them. Fox hunting was in our CULTURE. We decided it was CRUEL so we BANNED it. Why is that bad? There are other ways to deplete the fox population (if that's your aim) without chasing them for hours and then letting them be savaged by dogs.

Who made you god? Who made you decide the definition of a 'useless creature.' Nature has managed for thousands of years without our help, in fact it is probably better without us.

You sound like a Daily Mail article haha. Let's see what happens when we don't kill foxes violently! They'll take over and run our streets, and terrorise us all! *rolls eyes.*

End of this convo! Back to Dolphins in Taiji please.

just last point. in nature there arent any usless creatures. but in eyes of people there are - usless for meat, for fur, for oils and etc. and when they do spread..yea there will be problems. its all im saying out of experiance.

ok. lets get back to sawing whles and bees. o, i mean dolphins.

so ronin...next argument, please ? :cool:

Lol.. we? Who is we? Japan? A lot of Japanese are against whaling also. Do their opinions not matter? Stop trying to make this about Japan.

Its not my whole argument. My other argument of course is that whaling is environmentally unsustainable.

ONLY the opinions of scientists? They are the ones whose opinion matters the most. After all... they are SCIENTISTS.

Hmmm... who do you listen to for information on thinks like nature? I listen to scientists personally

As I said before. The only reason it cant be said for certain that they are self aware is because dolphins and whales havent spoken to humans and told us that they are.

I actually gave an article back a couple posts which says it is the opinion held by scientists on the issue too. So guess what... you are wrong again.

Japan can choose whatever she wants. This is about who is right or wrong.

@Ronin4hire.

"..Lol.. we? Who is we? Japan? A lot of Japanese are against whaling also. Do their opinions not matter? Stop trying to make this about Japan. ."

Yes, Japan. whether for or against. it's our decision not yours.


"..Its not my whole argument. My other argument of course is that whaling is environmentally unsustainable..."

I already addressed that.


"..ONLY the opinions of scientists? They are the ones whose opinion matters the most. After all... they are SCIENTISTS..."

The opinions of pro-environmental scientist doesn't count. I can predict exactly on what side of the line their opinions will land not because I am clairvoyant, but because they have an agenda. That is why science requires proof.


"..I actually gave an article back a couple posts which says it is the opinion held by scientists on the issue too. So guess what... you are wrong again..."

I didn't catch the article so I'll abstain from commenting on it until I read it and did some cross referencing.


"..Japan can choose whatever she wants. This is about who is right or wrong..."

Well, I can live with that since you acknowledged Japan will choose it's own path. and the path we choose may not be the right on for you, but it will be the right on for us.

chiuchimu, are you for or against whaling and what are your reasons? It's clear you are for Japan making it's own decisions, I'm just interested to what your thoughts are on the matter entirely. :)

My girlfriends mother is a whale and japan can come and take her anytime lmao !! :D :D :D

Any country can choose to make decisions about how it treats it's people or it's environment but they can't do so in some sort of vaccuum immune from international criticism.

We no longer live in a world where things can be hidden all that well from international scrutiny. Japan also needs to realise that the internaitonal community is not going to just accept it's propaganda and political spin like most of it's own people do.

Countries can assert their right to make their own decisions in how they manage their own affairs but they have no right to expect to do so without crtiticism or possibly some sort of sanctions or other consequences for the decisions they make. If countries want to participate in international trade then they must expect to receive international criticism and deal with it in a well reasoned and mature manner. Simply claiming it's our country we can do whatever we want just doesn't cut it these days.

Where did you address the environmental argument?

The environmental argument is that it is not sustainable and that big business cant be trusted to maintain quotas set when their operation is not even economically sustainable unless they surpass these quotas.

Not to mention that if Japan is allowed to whale, then you will have other Asian countries like Korea demanding that they be allowed too. (In fact they already do whale hunt though their quota is significantly smaller I think.)

Its opinion based on their expertise, their findings. Its not like they made it up. You can read it anywhere. Are they predisposed to sympathy for the whale? Sure they are. But lets look at their findings upon which they BASE their opinions. All have been tested. And which do you think is more likely? Scientists make stuff up, risking their livelihood and their reputation in order to bolster their "agenda" or the whaling industry and their apologists playing stubborn, claiming that its not "proof". And of course it never will be proof for them and their apologists like yourself until they say in Japanese that they are self aware.

Like I said before. The dolphins passed the mirror test. Some species of whales have been observed communicating and organise themselves around a language, even referring to each other by what seems to be name, and speak in dialects.

Lets just examine the path Japan has chosen shall we?

You have a bunch of whaling lobbyists who are Japanese nationalists that are pissed off because commercial whaling was banned for ENVIRONMENTAL reasons. They have a lot of money and therefore have considerable influence amongst Japans corrupt politicians (Japanese politics is pretty much a joke among the international community, I mean Kan says some promising stuff... but so did his predecessor so lets see how long he lasts).

It is not even economically feasible to hunt whale without government subsidy which is what these lobbyists recieve.

Yeah... "good choice" Japan

Its not even a practical choice. Which is what makes the Sea Shepherds work important. For every whale they prevent the whalers from catching, that is more money that the Japanese government has to pay in order to sustain this industry.