Help with ni/de/he and wa/ga?
 

I sincerely apologize. I have gone through the forum and other sites as well to see if I can have the particles clarified, but I'm still utterly lost. I understand that ni, de, and he is used to denote locations, but what are the ways in which they are used? And for ni/he, does it matter which one is used in examples like "doshokan ni/he ikimasu"?

Also, taking this sentence as an example:
Tsukue no ue ni neko ga imasu.

Would tsukue be the subject and neko the direct object? Ga is only used for direct objects, is that correct? Thus, would "watashi wa ramen ga tsuki desu" be correct?

And if this is possible, if there are any koreans out in JF, would anyone mind verifying if my 'translation' of Japanese particles in Korean particles is correct?

가 = ga
는 = wa
입니다 = desu
를 = wo
에 = ni
에서/까지 = kara/made
로 = he/de
이(거)/저(거)/저~~(거) = ko(re)/so(re)/a(re)

I realize that I've pretty much barraged you guys with questions, hahha... ^^;;; I apologize, but I'm confounded by all this. I feel like the moment I have the grammar structure down pat, it rears up and knocks me over the head. Y_Y

Japanese is truly a challenge to learn. XD Not only is the kana difficult to memorize at first, but the grammar is backwards of English, and kanji is indomitable. Taihen desu ne!

You're doing great so far, and your 'ramen' sentence structure is also correct.

Japanese may be the opposite of English, but assuming that you're Korean, then it would be fairly easy for you. I have many Korean friends and they often tells me that the Korean grammar is almost the same as Japanese.

Ultimately, I guess it all depends on the individual.

This can be tough to grasp, and honestly for me, a lot of it was just hearing it enough times, and eventually certain things just sound naturally right and wrong. For the first example (btw, it's toshokan), either of the two could be suitable for that sentence. I like to say that 'he' (pronounced 'e' when used as a particle), is an equivalent of something 'in the direction of', or 'to'. That's not absolute, it's just how I see them.

You are right in that wa is used for the subject, and ga is for the direct object. (just remember the word you want for that sentence is 'suki', tsuki means 'moon')

'De' is the 'by means of' particle, such as in 'densha de ikimasu' (Go by train) or hitori de sanposhimashita (I walked by myself). Any other questions, feel free to PM me. :)

I am by far the last one who could say something, but that phrase can be pretty much misleading. If I say "sakana ga tabeta" (魚が食べた), saying that ga marks the object is not correct. In that case the phrase means the fish ate. If I want it to be the object I will say "sakana o tabeta"(魚を食べた), where the fish is the object since it receives the action on himself, I ate the fish.
Same thing is valid for ha (は), you cannot say it it the subject. This particle can be found with a location, with an object and yes with the subject.
As per the word suki (好き), it is much easier for someone like me who is Italian or someone who speaks Spanish since in both languages it works like in Japanese. The item which is "liked" is actually the subject and the person who likes it becomes the termination of the action. So a phrase like "I like that car" in these language would be more properly translated in English as "the car is liked by be".


I know that for people in the beginnings like me and him it can be tough. But it is better to say what they are and just learning how to use them.
Ha (は) marks the topic and ga (が) marks the subject.

Thank you for your help! ^___^

So does this mean that 'wo' denotes the direct object (almost always definitely) and 'ga' is something like a subject indicator? And 'wa' kind of denotes the 'owner' of the sentence?

Let's say, "watashi wa hana ga suki desu." (Thank you for the corrections!) Watashi is the topic (the 'owner') and hana is the subject? And in "watashi wa steak (suteeki?) o tabemasu", 'watashi' is the topic and 'steak' is the direct object? Aaand... does 'neko ga suteeki o taberu' make sense? I'm going with my instincts here, so I put in a 'ga' instead of 'wa'. If it is wrong, then... I guess 'wa' is correct. But if it is correct, why IS it 'ga'? If it is 'watashi WA suteeki o tabemasu' then why isn't it 'neko WA suteeki o taberu'? @_@

Just to make sure that I'm not failing in English grammar, in English (I like flowers), 'I' would be the subject and 'flowers' would be the direct object?

Thank you once again! m(_ _)m;;;;

Yes your reasoning works fine. Yes the phrases are correct. Yes the phrase changes if you put wa or ga. No, it is not that easy to explain it hee hee.
I guess for most of the Japanese language students the difference between wa and ga represents the first and biggest problem.
sakana wa taberu and sakana ga taberu both mean the fish eats, but in Japanese they have a certain difference. Sometimes to help us understand (us as beginners) they tell us to translate the wa with "as per..." or "for what concerns the...", but it is not always easy to see the difference.
The way I see it is that when you put the wa, like in my example, you care about the fish and the rest is additional information. While with a ga you main concern might have been something else. I don't know, maybe we were talking about the sea (as topic, my main concern) and the fish eats is just an additional information of the sea.
Hard to explain...only using it will help you understand it.

I thought ga was like a more emphasis I really do not know like..

watashi wa tabetai desu - I want to eat
and

watashi wa ringo ga tabetai desu - I want to eat 'apples' (more specifically)

watashi wa ringo wo tabetai desu - I want to eat apples (but can also eat somethign else as well)?

Thats what I thought at least.

Can someoen confirm/deny this? I'm really am lost lol.

You're doing great!

Your sentence with Ni was correct. Ni describes where something is, but De describes where an action takes place, or how you're going to do it. I guess it's a "verb qualifier". Such as "Toshokan de benkyoushimasu" (I'll study at the library), or "Jitensha de iku" (I'll go by bike)

He can be like "towards" so "Mura he michi" (the path towards the village), but don't quote me on that one. I hear it pretty rarely.

Wa is used to introduce a topic and so forth, and Ga is used when the topic has already been mentioned. There's subtle differences between "Ramen wa, suki desu" (literally means 'as for ramen, I like it') and "Ramen ga suki", but Ga is very flexible and you'll pick it up over time.

Like you said, wo can introduce a verb, such as "Sakana wo tabetai", but in informal conversation wo is often dropped.

I noticed you didn't ask about No or Mo, so here's a crash course. Since you like grammar terms, No is a possessive. "Boku no hon" = My book. "Takeshi no inu" = Takeshi's dog. You can read it backwards, dog OF (no) Takeshi, or think of it as an apostrophe+s.

Watashi wa, terebi wo suki = I like TV

If you want to say "I also like TV", where would you put the Mo? Would you replace the Wa, or the Wo? You'll be graded on your answer ;)

My advice to you is to listen and speak the language, don't analyze it with that subject/direct object crap. It was enough of a pain in high school English :P

Even native Japanese people sometime discuss about "HA" and "GA" and will not agree each other every time.

As for me, I agree with Chryuop (Watashi HA Chryuop-san NI Sansei Shimasu).

WO(or O) definitely indicates direct object.
GA indicates subject as a principle and sometime indicate object as rare cases (used with like, love or else).
HA is indicater of main topic and should not used more than once in a sentense while GA can be used many times in sub-sentense to indicate subjects in sub-sentenses.

HA indicates sometime subject and object other time. And also HA implies some limitation. For example, if someone says "SAKANA HA KATTE KITA YO" (I bought fish) implies he/she forget buying something other than fish.

When GA is used to indicate the subject, the sentense is just a fact and corries no intention of the talker. It may sound strange for western people because English always tells the fact. (Sorry, I can not continue because it is too difficult to explain in detail)

For example, "Watachi GA Yari mashita" (I did) is just a fact and it is enough as an answer for the question "who did it?". If you want to tell your opnion, you should say "Watashi HA KOU Omoi masu" (I think that...).

As as extreme example which is well known by Japanese People, "Watashi HA UNAGI Da" which means "I will order Eel (following to other people's order)" instead of "I am an eel".

I hope these help you.

Radiokidさん　すみませんが

You said that は shouldn't be used more than once in a phrase, but while I was studying different uses of は, my book said that I can use it in some cases...is it wrong? I will try to make an example.
私は日本語を話しません。でも、私はイタリア語は話し ます。
The book refers to it as a use of "opposition". Not A...but B...
But I might have misunderstood it.

I'm sorry, multiple "HA" is not grammer issue.

>私はイタリア語は話し ます。

This is not wrong. And also most of native Japanese will accept it in a talk.
But in written form, it seems strange. Native Japanese will omit "私は" here because you alerady indicate the main theme in the first sentense.

multiple "HA" in a sentense is not an issue of grammer but they will make confusion because the listener can not find main topic when complicated expression follows after multiple "HA".

I always check my writing to avoid multiple "HA" in a sentense. In this case, I would write, (assuming you only speak Italian)

私は日本語を話しません。イタリア語だけです。

In your example, I wonder why you focused on Italian in your second sentense and will ask "How about English or other languages?".

Keaton421: Grammar is my absolute worst subject, and yet I need to use my grammar knowledge to ask questions about Japanese grammar. That's... bad. XD But it works out, a little.

Etou.... watashi wa terebi MO suki desu? 8D But that's assuming that the 'also' in "I also like television" refers to television. If the 'also' refers to 'I' as in "me, too!" then it would be watashi MO terebi o suki desu. So the placement of the mo would slightly change the meaning of the sentence.

...Right? XDDD;;

RadioKid: Domo arigatou gozaimasu! m(_ _)m In the example you gave about ordering food (watashi wa unagi da), you would use it after someone asked you what you will order? I think I kind of get it... is it because unlike English, where you need to state specific things, in Japanese as long as the subject is known the subject can be omitted? Therefore in that situation "watashi wa unagi da" can be used without causing a misunderstanding?

And to anyone who can answer: I'm going off in a tangent here, but one thing that keeps on bugging me is the use of 'da'. I'm pretty sure it's similar, if not identical, to the usage of 'da' in Korean, but I wanted to confirm if 'da' is an informal form of 'desu'?

Yes. desu = da.

Arigatou, enyafriend! *^__^*

Yonsu-san,

In general, Japanese people share the common theme of the comversation and hate to switch the theme suddenly. If someone open other theme than pther people share, he/she would be called "KY" (Kuuki Yomenai Yatsu: Guy who can not read atmosphere).

I do not think it is good custom of Japanese. But we tend to have such behavior.

Heheh, well whatever works for you. I struggled like hell in English class with those terms, so I couldn't imagine using it for another language.

Hey man, very close. In English we mostly say "I like it too" but in Japanese it's closer to "I, too, like it", so it would be Watashi mo ;)

And yeah, Da is short for Desu. You'll learn about short forms soon enough, it can be a pain in the ass :D

RadioKid: Ahhh~~ That's interesting. XD

Keaton421: Hahaha, just have to keep plowing on through grammar. X_X Thank you for the clarification! ^_________^ Are shorter forms generally more informal?

Yep, that's right, with friends, siblings, cousins, and people close to your age or younger you'd be leaving out the Wa often and using short forms.

"DA" has the same meaning as "DESU" and you can use "DA" whenever you can use "DESU" in terms of grammer.

However, "DA" has not the politeness which "DESU" brings. Please be careful to use "DA" when you are talking with people you respect(or people who expect you will take respect to him).

I hardly use "DA" in main sentense in talking. As "DA" is too strong and forces opinion to the listener, I often use "DAYO" or "DANE" instead of "DA" to soften it.

RK

RadioKid: Ohh. ^^ I'm sorry if this is a vague example, but if I wanted to say "kawaii desu" in an informal way, instead of saying "kawaii DA" it would be better to say "kawaii DA NE"? Does NE usually mean something like "isn't it?"

Hahaha, I'm sorry everyone about my incessant questions! XD;; sumimasennnnn =A=;;;

Ｙｏｕ　ｗａｎｔ　ｔｏ　ｓａｙ　ｋａｗａｉｉ？　Ｍ ａｙｂｅ， ｋａｗａｉｉ　ｎｅ．　Ｏｒ　ｆｏｒ　ｙｏｕ，　ｋａ ｗａｉｉ　ｄａｙｏ　Ｏ．Ｋ．　Ｂｕｔ　ａｌｌ　ｉｓ 　ｕｎｄｅｒｓｔａｎｄ　ａｎｄ　ｍａｋｅ　ｓｅｎｓ ｅ．

So the phrases
この時計は高いだ　and この時計は高いだか
are both grammatically correct? It means when they say I adjective won't go with da and da is not used with ka for questions is just a matter of form and not grammar?

No.

この時計は高いだ and

この時計は高いだか

is never said. Never use だ with adjectives that end in ~い

Yonsu-san, Chryuop-san,

Sorry, my checking was too loose. "KAWAII DA" or "TAKAI DA" would not be used usually.

However, I also will not use "TAKAI DESU" or "KAWAII DESU" because "TAKAI" and "KAWAII" are to be finish form or followed by noun. I hesitate to use "KAWAII DESU" or "TAKAI DESU" because "DESU" sounds unnaturally added to already completed sentense to give polite form in these cases.

On the other hand, it sound natural to say "KAWAII DESU NE" or "TAKAI DESU NE". hmmm, it is dificult to find generarl rules.

"NE" is used to ask listener (somtime including talker himself) to agree. "NE!" alone often used as "DO you agree?". (Sorry, I did not check all cases)

Thank you for your pointing out.

RK

かわいいだ　or 高いだ would never be said or used. It is incorrect. だ never follows a ~い adjective.

かわいいです or 高いです are perfectly normal, everyday sentences. Just like in English, adjectives can come before nouns [　それは高い車です。] or stand alone.　[ その車は高いです。]

かわいいですね。 and 高いですね are also good sentences looking for agreement from the listener. The speaker assumes the listener knows the information already.

Thank you for the clarification, MMM-san and RadioKid-san! <33 I am indebted to all of you.