Learning help?
 

Ok.. so I can't seem to keep to my Japanese language studies. I tend to trail off and do other things and also i get distracted by people as well then forget what I learned. I'm not sure how I can do the immersion way with studying books cuz I feel I lack the money to redecorate my room and get some other japanese stuff. Though... i usually need someone or something to kick me in the right direction to keep on track and a study buddy would be great as well :/

Anyway... what can I do to make sure i keep to my studies and what can a poor guy like me do to try to immerse himself in the language and culture? One thing I heard was to get some japanese tv channels but my crappy cable service doesn't provide any of that :/

1. Stop being lazy. That's all there is. You're saying "how can I stop being lazy?" There is no trick: just stop being lazy. Either you'll stop being lazy, or you'll never learn Japanese. It is your choice.

2. "Immersion" is moving to Japan, not watching two hours of anime a day. Passive language experience is very ineffective. Only active is really useful.

I never mentioned anything about anime.... just japanese television.. like news and stuff. And crap...... i gotta kick my lazy habits... it's so damn hard XD.

Crap.... my sleeping habits are all messed up as well. I tend to sleep anywhere between 11pm and 4 am and wake up between 7 am and 1 pm. hnnn it should be something i should fix in general. Thanks a lot though guys.

How old are you?

in terms of speaking/pronunciation I would suggest listening to some japanese music and going to a karaoke house that plays japanese songs with your friends. it enhances reading and speaking in my opinion. television like anime/variety shows/news is alright for listening purposes but hard to follow depending on your level of japanese. if you can't travel to japan, interact with japanese people in your community like exchange students.

but really, you just need to be motivated to keep up your japanese cause it's not necessarily the fact that you're lazy that's the problem.

@ kyleGoetz---

I'm 24. I tend to stay up working on my drawings or graphic design work .. or just talking to friends >.>

( is a freelance graphic designer that is underpaid even for a freelancer)

@platapeese---

I already listen to a lot of Japanese music and I tend to sing to myself sometimes but usually only do the songs that i sit down to memorize the lyrics to.. can never seem to do so with songs that I casually listen to. Zero japanese people in my current area. the only karaoke places in this area are spanish karaoke clubs and even if there was one that played japanese music, i don't have any RL friends interested to come with me to share the embarrassment with. I could go to Boston by train and find something there but again I lack friends who are interested in even leaving their homes.

I guess it's hard to keep at it if no one around me really cares though the interest in learning it is to speak with new people to begin with.... hnnnn

That's because passive learning is crummy.

Well, hate to say it, but if you aren't willing to relocate, your only real shot at learning Japanese is either to use Skype to chat online or to move to another city/country. You're 24, so you don't have many more real shots at learning the language left. In the US, the only opportunities to learn Japanese are either to grow up Japanese, live near Japanese people, or study it in college.

Great... now I feel old. I also don't have the cash to relocate like that though my intuition tells me that moving to japan like that in my current state would be shooting myself in the foot. I wouldn't know how to establish myself there without knowing the language and my graphic design skills are very amateurish, too much so to get a job there with that skill.

I've looked up Japanese language classes in the area and the nearest place is still Boston. This just makes me hate this area even more....

I'm sorry, but it's better you know the painful truth rather than blindly fumble in the dark. Without relocation, your best chances are behind you.

Except if you use Skype.

I rather know the truth than be ignorant about things. This is why I ask questions. Also, I wouldn't know how to meet Japanese speakers on skype. I only really talk to people that I already know on it. >.>

I'll still try to work with my books and kick the lazy habit to at least learn the written language but if i really want to learn the spoken stuff i will have to find a way to securely move there.

Thanks Kyle

Use Skype. Japanese people used to randomly message me and we'd chat, then start the phone conversations via Skype. You can do the same.

Hi I am sorry for re-hashing this topic. I came across it from searching for "rosetta stone". I am using this program to learn (well try to) japanese.

Coming here and reading the different posts on here has made me realize how far behind on my dream i am. You mentioned to the guy earlier that @ 24 his chances are drying up to learn japanese. SO i am 28 and now starting out, does that make my chances less than his. Maybe i am interpreting your statement incorrectly

Also when you say use skype, how would i use skype to just talk to meet, and get to talk to them to help me in learning this language?

I will continue to search and read up on different posts on the site.. Any other suggestions would be helpful.

I did see the helpful websites, also the different references, and translation guides, along with book/software suggestions.

Thanks in advance in helping this newbie

Warning: wall of text.

Yes. There is a combination of factors making this so.

First is the obvious "life" factors. You likely have a real job now, might have a wife and kids, and the likelihood of you packing up to move to Japan is probably almost zero if you do have a family or a steady job at this point.

The biggest one is the fact that there are two points in your life called "critical periods" for language. The first is about your first year of life, and after that you start categorizing sounds. Take, for instance, the "p" in "happen" and the "p" in "partner." To a native English speaker, they are the same sound. But to a Spanish or Hindi speaker, they are not the same sound.

This is because English treats an "non-aspirated" (haPPen) and "aspirated" p (Partner) as the same sound. But Spanish has only a non-aspirated p (and the use of non-aspirated p in Spanish is a dead giveaway that the speaker is a gringo), and in Hindi, the aspirated and non-aspirated p sounds actually change the meaning f the word.

If you're curious as to the difference, put your hand about two in front of your mouth and say the two words. Feel the air difference? That is the difference between aspirated and non-aspirated p. Now try and switch the sounds. First, it's probably tough for you to do. Second, "partner" probably sounds like "bartner" to you.

The second critical period happens about when you're in high school. After this period, it becomes exponentially more difficult to learn a language because you just don't absorb vocab and grammar like a kid anymore.

So when I talked about the best years being behind someone, I mean it's just going to be outrageously difficult, if not impossible, to ever achieve native fluency. I figure if you're 28 and just starting out with Japanese, you should know the likelihood of you ever achieving fluency is almost zero. I would be surprised if you could ever watch a Japanese TV show without subtitles and understand it all. Biology is acting against you.

That being said, there are exceptions. I just met a 40-something year old guy who is learning Chinese right now, and his accent is really good—granted, he did just get back from a month-long vacation in Taiwan with his family, and he has enrolled himself in Chinese school here in Texas with his kids.

When was the last time you learned a language? How are you with learning them? You may already have a feel for how to learn one, and this will go a long way toward being good in Japanese.

Executive summary: If you're 20+ years old, learning a language to fluency is really, really hard if you've never learned any language before. It's biology. But there are exceptions (I've met them, and I am one, too), and your brain may be one.

Get Skype. Search for users who speak Japanese. Send a message to one of them introducing yourself. See if they're willing. Do a regular chat a few times, then maybe try voice chat if you think your Japanese is up to it. Be prepared to do a language exchange, where you do 20 minutes of English and 20 minutes of Japanese. There are a lot of Japanese people (or there were 5 years ago when I did this) willing to do this. One of my American friends (classmate in Tokyo with me at the time) actually met his wife this way—she messaged him looking to practice her English. The funny thing is that I actually met her first, so one day I meet my friend's new girlfriend, and she starts laughing and tells me that she's the girl I've chatted with on Skype.

Right now, you should (1) order a copy of Kanji in Context (out of print, so be prepared to pay 30-50 USD for it on Amazon IIRC); (2) study Tae Kim's guide to Japanese grammar (free website); and (3) learn hiragana and katakana now. Once you have a foundation of grammar, use Skype.

And you'll never feel "ready" for Skype. Another reason kids are better than adults at languages is because adults are too chicken to give it a go because of the risk of embarrassment. So drink some whisky and try. You'll be surprised how much better your Japanese is. Another of my American classmates in Tokyo sucked while sober, but he got drunk with his Japanese friends and became semi-fluent. Just because he was afraid of making mistakes while sober, so he overthought things.

I dont want to re-quote everything to over stretch the thread.

Its sad that i have wasted so much time in life. I am still determinded to learn to speak and understand. Do I really need to be fluent in order to communicate, I understand that it would be cool to just jump and speak to someone like I do with english.

Honestly I have been trying to learn spanish, they only thing with spanish is that. Everyone knows spanish its an easy language to learn. So i stopped attempting and decided i wanted something hard. If Japanese turns out to be exceptionally difficult I may have to stick with the spanish.

Not really looking for a g/f either have one already and she is enough of a handfull. Plus to learn this language and to get another one. I really dont think I have the energy for all those distractions.



EDIT:

I would also like to thank you for taking the time to undersand my questions, also taking the time to answer them. Without flaming me or looking down at me. I really appreciate it. I will be sure to try all that you have suggested.

Wish me luck, hopefully i maybe able to have a small conversation with you, in the near future.

Good luck.

Also be aware that Japanese will take you many times as long to achieve the same level of ability as in Spanish. Until recently, despite having only studied Spanish for three years about 10–15 years ago, I could still read it better than Japanese even though I'd studied Japanese for four years and lived in Japan for one.

That being said, it is no longer true. I have a much better grasp of Japanese thanks to my flashcarding over the past year.

There is some good stuff being said in here!

As far as "critical periods" for learning language go, I've read differently. I heard that it's really easy to learn a language up to like 3-4 years old. Then the next level is elementary school. It gradually starts going down hill from there. By the time you're in high school you are considered, linguistically speaking, an adult (I've seen some books say it's like 10 years old... but I disagree). I've never thought of mid-late 20's as being another stage though. I most certainly agree that it is though after considering what you posted Kyle. I can't imagine starting to learn a new language with a full time job, a wife, and kids.

I think what it comes down to is that you become more and more used to your mother language. It's like the "P" sound that Kyle was talking about. If you grow up your whole life having only heard one "P" sound, then it will be hard for you to say other ones, or even hear them for that matter. It's like you have 28 years of muscle memory working against the 2 weeks of your new language learning. It's going to take time.

Conversely, if you are a 9 year old kid, you might not know all the minute details of your langauge's grammar yet, so when learning a new language you might not feelt the need to go over the grammar (which I think is an advantage). I think adults tend to see a language as somewhat of a math equation where you just swap out your "x's" and "z's" for other letters and you've got a new language.

It is my opinion that you have to completely separate your mother language from your new language. This is easier for young kids to do I think. Really young kids (like 3 and under) are pros at this. They learn all kinds of things without language. An adult, however, has to have a word for everything they do. It's like if a 3 year old were to go bowling and get a strike. The kid probably doesn't give a shit that it's called a "strike" or that those pins are called "pins" and that he or she is "bowling".

It's that technique of "not giving a shit" that is important. You have to kind of look at everything while turning off part of your brain. What this does is it gives you a "clean slate" to work with. I think it's extremely hard to do though. For kids this ability comes natural. For adults, I think it's an extremely hard thing to do.

With that said, I think I learned a lot of Japanese differently than most people. When I drink, my words get slurred and if I were to ever mix English in with my Japanese, then that would be when it would hapen (if I were to get drunk, that is). I've tried my best to learn Japanese as a "motor skill", basically (or what you would categorize what something one does without thinking as)... I think a mother language is learned that way.

I have had similar experiences with Skype. I was looking for penpals (during college after the head of the dept told me to quit because I sucked so bad) and I sent some e-mail to a bunch of people. One of them introduced me to Skype. After that, I used to talk to her regularly and learned a lot. It's not just about language though, it becomes more about meeting a friend and finding stuff to talk about which leads to all kinds of conversations which go beyond "language learning". I was terrible at Japanese at the time, but I think that the experience helped give me some inspiration to study. Also, like Kyle said, people will contact you as well (and when you see a Japanese person who contacts you, you can usually set something up). I wouldn't recommend SKYPE right away though... I think to be fair to the people you contact, you should at least have a year or so of studying under your belt.

But yea, baddadan- good luck dude! I think starting late certainly is harder. If you really try hard at it you'll get it eventually. Look at it this way, at least you don't have to worry about tests, homework, crappy teachers, and annoying classmates. (I apologize if I fall under the latter :) )