ki and dai after numbers
 

hi there
what is difference between ichidai and ikki or nidai and niki ?

thanks

What are these counters you're referring to? 〜台？I'm not sure what 〜き you're talking about...

If I were you, I wouldn't even start worrying about learning the counters before I learned the kana.

台（だい） = cars, machines, appliances, etc.
機（き） = airplanes

thanks a lot
its true
:ywave:

Haha, I'm pretty sure I understood what's going on here, but just to clarify 機（き）is a counter used for airplanes? I can safely say that I have not encountered this once in a conversation. I guess we don't have airplanes flying around here, but still! 台 is something that I hear all the time though.

Sashimister, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a question about counters. A few months back someone told me that when writing horizontally, in Japanese you use Arabic numerals (ie 1 2 3 4 5 6...). When writing vertically, Japanese use kanji. The person said that is the "general rule", but I've seen that rule broken quite a few times. Are there certain counters that just look better with kanji-numbers and certain counters that look better with Arabic numerals? Could it be a personal style thing?

i heard this in a television learning program !

How do you count airplanes around where you live, then? 機 is the ONLY counter I've ever read or heard airplanes being counted with in my half-century-long life as a Japanese-speaker.　I couldn't even think of an alternative counter. When announcements are made on domestic flights, the word used to mean "this aircraft" is always 当機（とうき）.

That is the general rule and I think I can safely say that I see vertually no exceptions to the rule in the printed media, which is only natural because that's visually the easiest way for us to communicate with one another when using numbers and counters. Needless to say, though, I am not including websites in my discussion for obvious reasons.

What I suspect that you may be mixed up about this rule is the following. When we see a "phrase" consisting of a smaller number and a simpler counter, we sort of consider it to be a word. Examples are 二人、一人前 (one order/portion of food), 三位 (third place), etc. These words are very often written in kanji even when written horizontally.

With larger numbers, it's more obvious which one looks "better" and "easier" in most people's eyes. You simply aren't going to see 「２４,８３０人」 written vertically. You will, however, see 「８人」 written both vertically and horizontally.

Last thing I want to add, which I'm not quite convinced that many Japanese-learners are aware of, is that the general Japanese public are far more used to using Arabic numerals than the kanji numerals. We spend little time using kanji numerals in arithmetic in elementary school or in real life. This means that we have a hard time remembering numbers if we see them in kanji. Just thought to add that because I have a feeling that some of you may have thought the opposite way.

an important Question !!

when we are counting cars we say ichidai ,... and for shoes we say issoku and for airplanes ikki !!!
now , is there lots of these numbers?? somewhere ichi the other one is and ik . oll of these refers to one object !! seems to be so hard !

Umm it is just how the counter works.. it is still saying ichi いち, but when said with ki the pronunciation changes from ichi, to i いっ, this is a small tsu っ, used to indicate a brief pause between the i, and the ki. and it is written in romaji by using a double consonant.. in this case "kk"

Counters in Japanese are frigging endless, there is even a drinking game Japanese people play using the billion different counters they have.

Yeah, and the letter "n" becomes "m" before consonants like "p" and "b" in English.

in (not) + possible = impossible
in (not) +pass = impasse

It's just a phonetic rule, and it makes a lot of sense. It's far easier to say いっき than いちき.

What I meant to say was that I simply don't recall ever counting airplanes... even in English saying "3 airplanes" and stuff like that is not something I can recall saying outside of a history class when talking about a war or something like that. I respect the fact that there's a counter for it... I'll probably remember it now that I've seen it, but I'm not sure I'll get the chance to use it! I think 当機 will come in handy though. I think knowing that 機 is the last kanji of 飛行機 will make all of this easier to remember for me though!

As far as the whole arabic numerals thing vs kanji numerals goes, I only usually read Japanese on my cell phone so that's where I've seen all kinds of exceptions to the general rule. I'm most certainly mixing up the "counter" thing with the "phrase" thing. Sometimes it's hard for me to discern phrases from counters I suppose.

I'm have been fully aware of the fact that Japanese seem to be more comfortable with arabic numerals for everyday use. I mean computers, phone numbers, adresses, etc. all typically use arabic numerals. I've never seen a math equation done in Kanji, but I could imagine it'd be a trip! It reminds me of using roman numerals to do math with.

Something that I've noticed though-- if you get a business card and the phone number and stuff are written in Kanji, then it sometimes means the person is really high up (that or it's like a super 和食 restaurant's business card).

I think the hardest thing for foreigners to understand as far as counters go (at least speaking for myself) are the specifically Japanese counters... I'm talking about like old measurement systems, tatami sizes, and things like that.

Going a little bit off topic, in learning Japanese, I learn a lot of words that I simply don't know in English. Like I can match the images and words, but I just don't know the English versions. Like Japanese people seem to have a deeper appreciation for flowers (and nature in general) than people in southern California (or at least myself!) because I know more flower names in Japanese than I ever wanted to know in English. The same thing goes for fish... like I wonder if there are even translations for things like ぶり、がんど、ふからぎ, etc.

Thanks as usual for all the work you put in your explanations Sashimister.

what is this counter about ? pai or hai
ぱい
はい

Are you talking about the different pronunciations of the same counter 杯 for "~~ cups/glasses of ~~"? If so, I'll explain it.

yes .
i want to know what this means ?
only glass and cup ??

It's mostly used to count cups/glasses of beverages.

We also use it to count octopuses, squids, abalones, etc. (Obviously not for the beginning student.)

The pronunciation of this counter depends on the actual number that precedes it. These are EVERYONE'S weak point. Read'em aloud many times or don't even bother reading. Read'em silently and you will get absolutely nothing. I'm darn serious.

いっぱい（１）、ろっぱい（６）、はっぱい（８）、じゅっぱい（１０）　

にはい（２）、よんはい（４）、ごはい（５）、ななはい（７）、きゅうはい（９）　

さんばい（３）

乾杯!!!!!!!!