Help me to understand: おやすみ vs. おやすみなさい
 

おやすみ versus おやすみなさい.

Which one would I use, is おやすみなさい more formal? What is the difference?

~Thanks.

おやすみなさい is just more formal yes.

Both of them are used as "sleep tight" or "good night" or something to that effect. Literally, the former means rest (noun) while the latter is an imperative.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. :p

Correct.

@OP: General rule of thumb for Japanese greetings: The longer it is, the more formal it tends to be. 'Polite' greetings are also usually longer.

Then again, this is true for greetings in most languages as well.

「おやすみ」 also has other meanings, such as "Holiday" or "Vacation".

I think 「おやすみ」, when used as a greeting, should be avoided when speaking with strangers (or people you do not know well.) I may be wrong in this case though, so it's best to check with a native speaker.

Umm but for the imperative form I do not think you would attach お at the beginning. Thus, "Go to bed!" or "Take a break!".　would be　休みなさい！ not おやすみなさい。

The imperative mood, despite the name, does not necessarily have to refer to commands, and may refer equally to requests as well.

Attaching 「-てください」, 「-いなさい」 and 「-てちょうだい」 (among others) changes the mood of a phrase into the imperative mood. Since this is a 'grammatical concept', (and if I recall correctly), this remains true regardless of the speaker's intention.

Now, most Japanese would neither interpret 「おやすみなさい」 as a command nor as a request, but then again the interpretation of a lot of common phrases also differ from their literal meanings (「ありがとう」、「こんにちは」、
「すみません」、「ごめんなさい」, for example.). Furthermore, Robhol used the word "literally".

As such, I believe that robhol is technically correct.

TL;DR version: 「おやすみなさい」=Good night. It literally means "Please rest." 「おやすみ」 also means "Good night", but is less formal than 「おやすみなさい」.

I was just saying they do not attach an お at the beginning of imperative phrases... have you ever heard of someone saying おたべなさい？ In the same way I do not think おやすみなさい is ever used to have an imperative meaning. It is just politely saying "good night".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...9D&btnG=Search

Yes, it is a polite way of saying "good night", and while it is neither an order nor a request, it is still, technically, in the "imperative mood".

Of course, I'm splitting hairs at this point, and this argument is no doubt detrimental to the OP's understanding (and hence should be ignored by the him) but I would like to reiterate that robhol was technically correct.

お待ちください...ever seen this phrase? Give a look at the different forms of 敬語 (けいご) and you will answer your question on your own.
There are ways to use "imperative" also when you have to be polite, they just have a different "color".
Now, some of those are used into regular talk (the way I see it) just like お休み(ください not there, but might as well be).
EDIT: Let me get better what I meant. Honorific and humble verbs are made adding the お to the pre ます form and なさる is the honorific form of the verb to do. Basically what you do (I hope I am not wrong) is transform the verb into a noun and then add the verb "to do". Not much different from those many verbs made of a Chinese origin kanji noun+する like 勉強する.
As per お食べください, the verb to eat in humble and honorific changes completely, that's why the example you made wouldn't work.
I hope I am not too far off :)

I am not sure what we are arguing about. My statement simply was that you cannot construct an imperative form （なさい） and put お at the beginning of the verb and sound natural. So if you wanted to use 休む in the imperative form （なさい） you would write it 休みなさい　not　おやすみなさい。just like you would not say お行きなさい　お飲みなさい、お運びなさい。I mean, i can confirm this with japanese friends to be sure, and if I am wrong i am wrong, but my feeling is that polite お and imperative -なさい do not mix.

I have seen that phrase many times, however that is not what I am talking about. お（なになに）ください is very common. What i am talking about is you would not attach an お to say this construct: 食べなさい、飲みなさい etc... the ending here is なさい not ください。Like　お食べなさい、お飲みなさい　I mean I suppose it could be used, but i hardly hear people say it.

and i did some research and this is what I found..

｢お/ご～なさる｣
「なさる」「くださる」はもともとは「成される」「下 される」で、「成す」「下す」に助動詞「れる」が附い たものでした(*)。
(前の回答に「さ」に使役の意味があると言われたのは� �確ではありません。「成す」が他動詞だということな� �解りますが)
次第に「なされる」「くだされる」が一つの動詞のよう に感じられ、さらに「なさる」「くださる」に変化しま した。
単独ではどちらも活きて使われますが、前項のように「 お/ご～くださる」は活きて使われるのに対して、｢お/ご～なさる｣は古風に感じられ、｢お/ご～になる｣に席を譲ったと見ていいでしょう。
「お休みなさい」のような慣用句以外ではあまり使われ ることがなく、「先生がお読みなさる」は、よほど高齢 の方の言葉か方言と言ってもいいでしょう。

basically... its old school.

here is the site if anyone cares. ｢お/ご～になる｣、｢お～ください｣、｢お/ご～なさる｣という尊敬を表す文型が三つあ... - Yahoo!知恵袋

I'm sure that 45 pages of google results would show that 「お食べなさい」 is likely to be a perfectly valid and natural-sounding construction. Just go ahead and read a couple of them.

Along with 「お行きなさい」, 「お飲みなさい」, and 「お運びなさい」.

And in case you'd missed chryuop's post, there's also 「お待ちなさい」

As well as this:
Rick, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that imperative="not polite". This is completely wrong. 「-てください」 is also an imperative, for example.

Yes I googled them too just to be sure, but i was not convinced just by that.. so read my reply to chryuop

So yes, you are right, technically you can use お in front of the imperative, but it is not really of standard usage anymore. So my I still disagree with robhol that you would use　おやすみなさい to have an imperative meaning.

Yes, because Yahoo Answers is an authoritative source. And yes, because lack of evidence proves that something is false. And yes, because anecdotal evidence definitely trumps everything else, even if there's textual evidence to the contrary.

You're committing a lot of logical fallacies here.

Here's a 'counterexample' from Yahoo. Note that 「お/ご-なさい」 was (claimed to be) used in a commercial.

In particular, see this:
Here's an authoritative source:
More results from google.

I grant you that the 「お/ご-なさい」 is uncommon when compared to its alternatives, but that does not make it any less valid. Even if it's somehow no longer standard (which I doubt), robhol was still technically correct as he in no way claimed that the sentence would be either a command or request; he merely stated that it was (in the) imperative (mood). Which it is.

(Coincidentally, I happen to have the same surname as the writer of the publication.)

Also, 「お待ちなさい」

I seem to recall that it's rather common in anime and manga anyway. Usually uttered by the Ojou.

Well I already conceded that you are technically correct. However upon calling up two of my Japanese friends they confirmed what I had been feeling. They said that おーなさい in general sounds old, and that nobody would ever say おやすみなさい to mean "Go to bed".

Anyhow I misunderstood the meaning of imperative as you are using it apparently cuz I always thought it to be a command or request. So if that is what robhol meant too, then I still disagree with him.

And yes your article is certainly an authoritative source, however, in practical terms i think it is more significant how the everyday native speaker of a language feels about its usage. After all language changes and it is the speakers who change it.

...

I thought that I was being careful in making sure the meaning of 'Imperative' was clear enough, as I defined the (official meaning of the) word 'Imperative' no less than three times (including via embedded links), starting from post #6.

Oh well, glad that misunderstanding is out of the way. Which brings us to...

I don't think that anybody in this thread has ever mentioned that 「おやすみなさい」 means "Go to bed". This includes robhol:

I think his meaning is clear enough, and his use of the word 'imperative' seems close to the definition I have provided after his post. That said, you might prefer for him to come and clarify matters in person.

Also,

I rather not debate over the validity of this passage right now, so I suppose I'll just point out that you are moving the goalposts. (i.e. by changing the original argument.) 'though I have a feeling that this stems from a misunderstanding (of the original argument) instead of being intentional.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll need to blow off some steam now, as finding out that huge chunks of my posts are being selectively ignored is a particularly sore point of mine. I rather believe that it's no fault of yours (language barrier, maybe.), but I think I'll need to retire now anyway before I say anything that I would regret later.

I agree you are getting a little too fired up over this. My original argument with robhol was that おやすみなさい is not used in the imperative ie..
You gave me this definition which i read..."The imperative mood (abbreviated imp) expresses direct commands or requests as a grammatical mood. These commands or requests tell the audience to act a certain way. It also may signal a prohibition, permission, or any other kind of exhortation."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood.

So maybe I misunderstood something in there.. but whether it is to mean "Go to bed!" or "Please go to bed." (requests or commands) that is not how おやすみなさい is used. That was my argument. Then I mistakenly went on to imply that adding お to a なさい phrase is not correct. Upon further research I realized that was wrong, but I wanted to confirm its common usage. Which I found the yahoo link about and confirmed with two other native speakers that to them, it sounds old... and that おやすみなさい is not used as a request or command which is my understanding of what imperative means, and unless i have misread the definition you gave, that is what you are saying it means.

Now when it comes to sources, I am curious about the contradiction. I mean I talked to two other native speakers who confirmed what the yahoo link i showed said. But your authoritative source says otherwise... but my question is how does a native speaker's opinion, let alone 3, not hold any weight as you are suggesting? If I talk to 20 people tomorrow and they all confirm what I said.. are they all wrong? Anyhow like I said you basically already proved me wrong about the grammatical usage of おーなさい. So unless you still contest with me about using おやすみなさい in the imperative (not about being in imperative form but having imperative meaning) (as per the definition you gave me) then there is really nothing let to argue about is there?

And here something you said earlier, which is what I am saying. おやすみなさい is not a command or request... so while it is technically in the imperative form, it is not interpreted to mean "go to bed" or "please go to bed".. which robhol just said.. it is an imperative.. he did not say it is "in imperative form but does not have an imperative meaning". So.. when somebody says its an apple.. they usually mean its an apple.. but I suppose we need robhol to confirm this.

Anyhow I think we have been on two different wavelengths this whole time. So if you wanna drop it than thats fine with me.

So just to be clear...

Argument 1: Whether Robhol used the word 'imperative' correctly or incorrectly.

Let's drop it for now until Robhol gets back and clarifies his position.

Argument 2: Whether 「お-なさい」 is a valid form of the imperative mood. (this is a purely grammatical question.)

Agreement : 「お/ご-なさい」 is a valid form of the imperative mood.

Argument 3: Whether 「お/ご-なさい」 is an obsolete form of the imperative mood.

You intend these as three separate arguments, and you do not think that you are moving the goalposts from Argument 1 to Argument 3.

Is that the case?

Or substitute whatever word you think is more appropriate in place of "obsolete".

Argument 2 was solved a while back correct?

Argument 1 is unsolved until Robhol confirms whether he means imperative form or meaning.

And argument 3 if you want to still contest I suppose we can. I will just start asking around and report back later.

Argument 3: Then I'll advise asking around with the phrases 「お待ちなさい」、 「ご覧なさい」、「おいでなさい（お出でなさい）」 and 「お召しなさい」

As for the rest of the (お/ご-) Sonkeigo(尊敬語), refer to this post:
Example:
お＋座り＋なさるー＞お座りなさるー＞お座りなさい
お＋入り＋（に）＋なさるー＞お入り（に）なさるー＞ お入りなさい

(Also, to further clarify chryuop's post, the standard Sonkeigo for 「食べる」 is 「召し上がる」)

Ouch....you mention my post too many times, I wouldn't like you to think I am a very reliable source LOL. My Japanese knowledge is way too poor to be a reliable source.

Anyway what I wanted to say with my post is that in my opinion it was something grammatically correct. Now, if it is used, old language or sound weird, that I don't know.
But remember that the discussion started from a set phrase. Those kinda phrases exist in every language and sometimes even to native speaker they don't make much more sense outside of that set context.
Moreover a native speaker in this forum told me how a greeting and a thanking word very much used in Japanese are Kansai dialect words, does that mean we speak kansai?
I guess your discussion should just stop to the grammar point of view. For other things either you are 100% understanding their culture or you will never fully understand it.

Actually I am going to ask around with a variety of words. I will include some of the ones you ask ie.. the ones with an お〜なさい construction. I am not contesting different varieties of keigo, I am aware of them would prefer you not try to boast your superiority (cuz that is what it seems like you are doing-sorry if i am wrong) by suggesting I read an article on honorific speech in the Japanese language. I am only interested in how people feel about the お〜なさい construction. I want to determine if my feeling about its contemporary usage is correct, (since 3 natives opinions are not enough for you). And if it is limited to only a few words, then I hardly think that warrants it a place in common language today. So I will find out. I will ask people a how they feel about a variety of words and how they feel about the お〜なさい construction overall. Fair enough?

Ok, so I only had a chance to talk to two people today. They work in the same office as me but in a different department. Not sure but they are probably in their late 40's or early 50's. My friends are in their late 20's early 30's.

They both reconfirmed what the other 3 have basically said. They said おやすみなさい is never used to have an imperative meaning.

They felt お〜なさい construction is not so common, even when mentioning some of the phrases like お待ちなさい etc. that you asked me to ask about. And while お〜なさい construction is grammatically correct with most verbs, the actual usage of such constructions is not common. They also felt that the お〜なさい construction sounds old, and of older generations.

When asked to rate the relevance of the construction in today's language on a scale of 1-10. 10 being very relevant, and 1 being not relevant, both rated it a 2 or a 3.

One of the ladies continued on with an explanation that I think makes a lot of sense. She said she feels the お〜なさい construction is, and has been fading out of the Japanese language due to the fact that people are continuing to become more and more indirect and vague in their speaking habits. And very direct phrases like お〜なさい, which stem from the era of when Japan had a much more defined level of social classes, are becoming obsolete because they do not fit well into how modern society wants to communicate.

So well there you have it I guess. Is that good enough?

Oh wow guys, this is a lot of information.

I would just like to reinforce that I am very poor at Japanese.

I know this isn't really what we are talking about anymore but:

My textbooks use the example "おやすみなさい" as "Good night" (as in, have a good sleep sort of thing).

However, in pop-culture I see this gesture being said in the form of "おやすみ".

So, short answer please, if I were to use this in modern life not as a command to go to sleep but as a gesture for them to "rest well" I would use "おやすみ", correct?

Both mean "good night". 「おやすみ」 is less formal and hence it might be a good idea to use 「おやすみなさい」 for strangers.

Ignore the literal and/or grammatical meanings of the phrases. We were sidetracked.