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Maxful 01-10-2011 07:49 AM

閉める / 閉じる
 
Hi, I would like to know if both 閉める and 閉じる are interchangeable as "Close"?


ドアを閉める
ドアを閉じる

窓を閉める
窓を閉じる

封筒を閉める
封筒を閉じる

銀行の口座を閉める
銀行の口座を閉じる

duo797 01-10-2011 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845761)
Hi, I would like to know if both 閉める and 閉じる are interchangeable as "Close"?


ドアを閉める
ドアを閉じる

窓を閉める
窓を閉じる

封筒を閉める
封筒を閉じる

銀行の口座を閉める
銀行の口座を閉じる

As far as I know they're not 100% interchangeable. I could be wrong, but as to the first two I don't *think* I've heard them as anything other than 閉める, so ドアを閉める etc. There are a few examples where I think 閉じる is more appropriate right off the top of my head, like 本を閉じる and 目を閉じる. I admittedly don't have to much experience to say for certain how these two verbs differ, I just know that they're not 100% interchangeable all the time.

masaegu 01-10-2011 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845761)
Hi, I would like to know if both 閉める and 閉じる are interchangeable as "Close"?

The short answer is negative.

You have already asked the same question regarding another pair of verbs but you will need to know that the only time when two verbs are completely interchageable is when you have a Yamato-kotoba verb and its counterpart Chinese loan word. Otherwise, don't even seek interchangeability.

閉める and 閉じる are both originally Japanese words; therefore, there will be no complete interchangeability.

The two verbs even have different antonyms.
開ける <> 閉める
開く <> 閉じる
In other words, you can only 閉める the things you can 開ける and you can only 閉じる the things you can 開く.
 
Once again, don't let the translated English words "open" and "close" fool you. The sooner you break the habit, the faster and more properly you will learn Japanese.

ドアを閉める
ドアを閉じる Both OK

窓を閉める
窓を閉じる Both OK

封筒を閉める  straining
封筒を閉じる Better

銀行の口座を閉める barely OK
銀行の口座を閉じる Better and more natural
______

Other examples:

One can only say
本を閉じる
目を閉じる
幕を閉じる
心を閉じる

ネクタイを閉める
蛇口を閉める

Maxful 01-10-2011 02:43 PM

Thanks duo797 san and masaegu san. I should have said similiar instead of interchangeable.

By the way, I don't quite understand "ネクタイを閉める" as it sounds like "close the tie" to me. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

I have a few more questions which I need help on as I couldn't find the examples I need for my better understanding of the usage.


1. お茶をたてる (make green tea) - I would like to know if I can also say "お茶をいれる" just like "コーヒーをいれる"


2. 煮る (cook, boil) - Is the usage something like "to boil water", "to cook rice/fish, etc.


3. 付ける as "to mark" - Is possible to omit 印 from the following sentences?

を付ける
mark the spot

書類の重要なポイントに印を付ける
mark highlights of a document


4. 出る as "participate, attend" - I would like to know when I say "サッカの試合に出る/参加する" how does someone know if I am referring to "I will attend (to watch) the soccer match" or "I will participate (be playing) in the soccer match?


5. 組み立てる (assemble) - I find that this verb is slightly similiar with "まとめる", or at least it sounds similiar. But again, I could be wrong.


6. 載せる (place on, load onto) - This is the verb that confused me the most for today. When I first looked at it, the first thing that came to my mind is that if it means "To place something on the table" and "To load something onto the truck"?

masaegu 01-10-2011 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845794)
By the way, I don't quite understand "ネクタイを閉める" as it sounds like "close the tie" to me. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

I thought I had just said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 845783)
 Once again, don't let the translated English words "open" and "close" fool you. The sooner you break the habit, the faster and more properly you will learn Japanese.

You should trust your own ears more. If "close the tie" sounds strange to you, then it must be strange.

It means "to wear the tie (properly and tightly)". When you want to relax a little at work, you may loosen your tie around your neck a little, and then the reception desk calls you saying you have a visitor. You need to tighten your tie back to see him/her. This action is called ネクタイを閉める(OR 締める).

masaegu 01-10-2011 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845794)
1. お茶をたてる (make green tea) - I would like to know if I can also say "お茶をいれる" just like "コーヒーをいれる"

You can but the meaning will change as well.
たてる = the thick and bitter powdered green tea used at the tea ceremony
入れる = regular leaf tea used on a daily basis

Quote:

2. 煮る (cook, boil) - Is the usage something like "to boil water", "to cook rice/fish, etc.
No, but it's a good question because we never 煮る rice or water.
ご飯を炊(た)く
お湯を沸(わ)かす
The only thing you can 煮る are soup dishes and stews.

Quote:

3. 付ける as "to mark" - Is possible to omit 印 from the following sentences?

を付ける
mark the spot

書類の重要なポイントに印を付ける
mark highlights of a document
No, it isn't.

Quote:

4. 出る as "participate, attend" - I would like to know when I say "サッカの試合に出る/参加する" how does someone know if I am referring to "I will attend (to watch) the soccer match" or "I will participate (be playing) in the soccer match?
サッカ > サッカー

It can only mean "will play".

Quote:

5. 組み立てる (assemble) - I find that this verb is slightly similiar with "まとめる", or at least it sounds similiar. But again, I could be wrong.
I see no similarity, really.

組み立てる = to assemble, to build
まとめる = to collect, to gather together in one place

Quote:

6. 載せる (place on, load onto) - This is the verb that confused me the most for today. When I first looked at it, the first thing that came to my mind is that if it means "To place something on the table" and "To load something onto the truck"?
This is an important verb. You have two of the three meanings covered.

The third meaning is to "to publish an article or to run an ad in a printed medium".

Maxful 01-11-2011 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 845795)
You should trust your own ears more. If "close the tie" sounds strange to you, then it must be strange.

It means "to wear the tie (properly and tightly)".


Thanks for reminding me this as I had learnt this before in class but I actually forgotten it (sighs). The same can be say for wearing a belt, if I remember correctly.

As for 出る and 参加する, do you mind elaborate a little more for my understanding? From what I know, it can be use for participating and attend, but I am still confuse about how are people going to distinguish if I am telling them if I will be participating or that I will just be attending some places. Some examples will be helpful on this one.

Maxful 01-11-2011 03:11 AM

Another thing I wanna know is regarding 火にかける (put on the stove).

I would like to know if it is used this way:

フライパンを火にかける
Put the flying pan on the stove

masaegu 01-11-2011 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845853)
Another thing I wanna know is regarding 火にかける (put on the stove).

I would like to know if it is used this way:

フライパンを火にかける
Put the flying pan on the stove

Easier question first. Yes, that is correct. Pans and pots, you can 火にかける
.

masaegu 01-11-2011 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 845842)
As for 出る and 参加する, do you mind elaborate a little more for my understanding? From what I know, it can be use for participating and attend, but I am still confuse about how are people going to distinguish if I am telling them if I will be participating or that I will just be attending some places. Some examples will be helpful on this one.

サッカーの試合に出る/参加する
This is said by or about a player, not a spectator. No exceptions here.

A spectator will say:
サッカーの試合に行く
サッカーの試合を見に行く

Note 出る is used much more often than 参加する. In fact, you will confuse the listener if you used 参加する because nearly no one uses it in this context. If you want to use a Chinese loan word, use 出場する. You know all about the "word classes" between originally Japanese words and their Chinese loan word counterparts, don't you?

コンサートに出る = performer
コンサートに行く = audience

Nearly no one would say コンサートに参加する, but if someone did, the meaning would be highly ambiguous as to performer vs. audience. That's why nearly no one would say it.

会議に出る/参加する = attend the meeting
Here, both are good because there is only one thing you can do with a meeting. Attend or not attend. This is different from a soccer match where there clearly are two sides to it (play or watch).

You are trying hard to find simple rules regarding word usage but it isn't always that simple. This isn't limited to Japanese. The other language always looks more complicated than your own.


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