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demosselman 02-13-2011 09:15 PM

Japanese scroll translation
 
3 Attachment(s)
Hey!

I have 2 japanese (i assume) scrolls at home that I bought a while ago. I am now curious about what the characters on the scrolls mean in english.

Could someone translate the three images for me?

Thanks!

Supperman 02-14-2011 02:36 AM

The big letter in your 3rd scroll is 精神, which means "spirit", "soul", "mind".

KyleGoetz 02-14-2011 03:23 AM

I can't help but posit that these are Chinese, not Japanese.

masaegu 02-14-2011 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 850955)
I can't help but posit that these are Chinese, not Japanese.

I am 99.99% certain that the first two are in Japanese. It's a special kind of Japanese used on these art pieces. I only wish I were educated enough to read it. OP may possess what should belong in a museum if the piece is genuine. The first two are not from a piece that normal people own nor was it drawn for such people. Quite possibly, it was produced for Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Are the first two pics from the same piece? If so, there must be a drwaing of pine trees on the ruins of a battle field in Kawachi, part of present-day Osaka.

The second pic says the drawing was done on May 5, 1615. 元和 is a period in Japanese history (1615 - 1624). The way the date is stated is completely non-Chinese.

KyleGoetz 02-14-2011 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 850959)
The second pic says the drawing was done on May 5, 1615. 元和 is a period in Japanese history (1615 - 1624). The way the date is stated is completely non-Chinese.

This was the one thing that kept me from just saying "It's absolutely not Japanese."

My mind was weighing "the date is written Japaneseish" and "I can't make heads or tails of any of this" and "probably not Japanese" won out. :/

At least I couldn't recognize it because it's a special kind of old Japanese.

siokan 02-14-2011 05:11 AM

河内国 ? 岡 ? 郷   河内国=East side of present Osaka
御宿陣 ? 旧跡
松蔭館主七十 ? 四 ?????

元和元年5月5日 1695 5/5 Siege of Osaka(Summer Campaign)
神君御駒繋之松  神君=Tokugawa Ieyasu(title) 御駒=horse 繋之松=horse name

精神 =spirit; mind; soul; will; mental; spiritual; moral etcetc

天有三賽日月:confused:
星人有三賽?:confused:
?神仲唐:confused:

demosselman 02-14-2011 07:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks for all the replies!!! I didn't know it was such a special kind of japanese. I think i will post the 3rd pic on a chinese forum, i am even more curious now :D

The 1st and 2nd pic are indeed from the same scroll. I posted a pic of the full scroll. Is this scroll anything special?

SuddenOsprey 02-14-2011 08:32 AM

I believe the "駒繋之松" is actually "horse-hitching pine", as in a pine tree that a horse was hitched too. Some sort of famous tree.

SuddenOsprey 02-14-2011 08:32 AM

If you have clear close-ups of the seals, that could help.

demosselman 02-14-2011 08:52 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuddenOsprey (Post 850999)
If you have clear close-ups of the seals, that could help.

I tried to get the best possible shot of the seals. However, it's not a bright day in the Netherlands and my camera isn't all that great. I hope it's of any use

siokan 02-14-2011 11:37 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuddenOsprey (Post 850998)
I believe the "駒繋之松" is actually "horse-hitching pine", as in a pine tree that a horse was hitched too. Some sort of famous tree.

Bingo!
Neither the place nor the origin have been understood though examine with the net.

May 5, 1615
Attachment 11383
Because the troop headquarters was made in Hosida on the same day, the tree in the garden of this house.

The stamp(落款,rakkan) cannot be indistinctly read.

KyleGoetz 02-14-2011 02:37 PM

OP, you're new here, so let me just tell you that masaegu and supperman are both native Japanese speakers, and I think siokan is, too. I'm about 99% sure. I know he's in Japan, English is not his native language, and his Japanese is excellent. I just don't remember seeing him say "I am Japanese," so I'm only 99% sure. :)

In any case, listen to them about this question more than you listen to me.

chryuop 02-14-2011 02:51 PM

I might say a very stupid thing...if so just ignore me.
Maybe you should try to contact the closest Japanese embassy, I am sure they know where you can have that scroll checked. Moreover if it is an original 1600 piece they might be interested in buying it from you to place it in a museum.

SuddenOsprey 02-15-2011 02:24 PM

Hmm, sorry but the pic is a bit too blurry and I'm not near my seal script dictionaries anyway right now.

I wish I could add more, but attempting to build on siokan's reading of the last line of the second inscription on the pine scroll:

松蔭館主七十??四?指?(maybe "頭")?画

Also, I'm thinking 蔭 is 陰 instead. I'm not super sure on my readings here, but if it is 指頭面画, it may be declaring this work to be a "finger painting" (actually, many of these were done with finger tips and nails, so they can be quite skillful). It was a certain painting style used by some literati painters in Japan, though if the other text includes military references (encampments, etc) that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm totally off base and should keep my mouth shut ;). As always, clearer photos would be nice.

Basically, your best bet would be to contact a larger museum (that possesses a Japanese art collection) in your area. Some museums will let you send them images (or even bring the piece in) and attempt to give you some information. They are not appraisers and will not give you a monetary value, but they may be able to read the inscriptions and inspect the materials to get a better feel for time period, etc.

If its an authentic work: Congrats! What a nice thing to have! Take good care of it!
If its not authentic: Congrats! Now you can hang it up on your wall and enjoy it without worrying about the pigments fading, the paper browning, and insects eating it!


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