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-   -   Native Japanese Thoughts on American made Japanese Movies. (https://www.japanforum.com/forum/japanese-movies-tv/27215-native-japanese-thoughts-american-made-japanese-movies.html)

Tenchu 11-26-2009 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle (Post 785205)
I took it as though it was talking about Algren simply because at the end, when he speaks to the emporer, he said he would gladly end his life if the emporer thought of him as the enemy. This is obviously a reference to Katsumoto saying it previously to highlight that the samurai were there to serve the emperor!

What am I missing here (I have seen the movie)?

What are you talking about specifically?

noodle 11-26-2009 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchu (Post 785228)
What am I missing here (I have seen the movie)?

What are you talking about specifically?

Right at the end of the film, after the battle, Tom Cruise talks to the Emperor. He said that if the emperor wants him dead, he has but to ask. Katsumoto said the same thing to Tom Cruise and the emperor earlier in the film!

So, with what he just said there, it kinda confirms that Tom Cruise had become a Samurai. As he was the only one living, he was The Last Samurai!

Tenchu 11-26-2009 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle (Post 785247)
So, with what he just said there, it kinda confirms that Tom Cruise had become a Samurai. As he was the only one living, he was The Last Samurai!

Okay.

I've seen the movie a few times, but of course my memory is not perfect. I suppose I should convert to Islam and it'd improve! (you have no idea)

Samurai, as a title, I think is less a blood right as it is an honor acceptance.

If you read a lot about the Samurai, you come to see personal aspects are the defining aspect above tradition and blood line.

Samurai, really, was the Way of the Warrior; Bushido. The real honor in the true Way was finding a fighter who was willing to place predetermined resolution and acception of death above the supposed virtue of living onwards through self defence.

In the movie, The Last Samurai, the end result was a perfectly willing fighter who was willing to take to the grave what he viewed as perfection; no compromise, no fault; the perfect ideal of a Warrior.

I really care little for what others might say about the movie, for they are racist and missed the story entirely; that movie was a very good attempt to highlight what I see as the perfect Way of life (PBUI).

Skin color is the most complete irrelevant thing when it comes to Samurai; loyalty, honor, courage, predetermination (where does ethnicity come in? it comes through jealousy or ignorance).

Columbine 11-26-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchu (Post 785256)
Okay.

I've seen the movie a few times, but of course my memory is not perfect. I suppose I should convert to Islam and it'd improve! (you have no idea)

Samurai, as a title, I think is less a blood right as it is an honor acceptance.

Uh... but to some extents it WAS a blood right, surely? Paupers and merchants were considered different castes to the samurai and I don't think it was possible for someone of lower caste to socially migrate up to samurai status.

Tenchu 11-26-2009 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Columbine (Post 785259)
Uh... but to some extents it WAS a blood right, surely? Paupers and merchants were considered different castes to the samurai and I don't think it was possible for someone of lower caste to socially migrate up to samurai status.

That's 100% true, but, consider, everything that made the actual Samurai was nothing in their actual blood.

When it comes to the death of a breed, the mongrel has the last bite.

noodle 11-26-2009 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchu (Post 785256)
Okay.

I've seen the movie a few times, but of course my memory is not perfect. I suppose I should convert to Islam and it'd improve! (you have no idea)

Samurai, as a title, I think is less a blood right as it is an honor acceptance.

If you read a lot about the Samurai, you come to see personal aspects are the defining aspect above tradition and blood line.

Samurai, really, was the Way of the Warrior; Bushido. The real honor in the true Way was finding a fighter who was willing to place predetermined resolution and acception of death above the supposed virtue of living onwards through self defence.

In the movie, The Last Samurai, the end result was a perfectly willing fighter who was willing to take to the grave what he viewed as perfection; no compromise, no fault; the perfect ideal of a Warrior.

I really care little for what others might say about the movie, for they are racist and missed the story entirely; that movie was a very good attempt to highlight what I see as the perfect Way of life (PBUI).

Skin color is the most complete irrelevant thing when it comes to Samurai; loyalty, honor, courage, predetermination (where does ethnicity come in? it comes through jealousy or ignorance).

What was all that nonsense for? I didn't say anything about it being right or wrong that the last Samurai was Cruise... and even if I did say I had a problem with it, it would be more a problem with Hollywood films where the protagonist always delivers a message by being the survivor in the story...i.e. Happy Endings!

Columbine 11-27-2009 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchu (Post 785260)
That's 100% true, but, consider, everything that made the actual Samurai was nothing in their actual blood.

When it comes to the death of a breed, the mongrel has the last bite.

True, but you could have had as loyal and courageous and honorable a farmer as you like, and they'd still have said, "Ah, Tanaka-san, you are truly amazing for a farmer... but kindly get away from my daughter. >/"

He could be a hero, but actually called a samurai? Nah, only very exceptionally.

As for the line at the end of the film, I don't think it makes Aldren a samurai. He's a sympathizer; he says the line for Katsumoto's sake to remind the emperor that his most loyal subjects have died to make him realize that the traditions of Japan should be preserved and remembered, or else they face the same cultural (albeit not literal) destruction at the hands of the west as the native americans. The message is "Old Japan will willingly die for the sake of New Japan if that is what New Japan wants, but don't make us something shameful."
If anything, it's painfully ironic. "You've killed Katusmoto, and look what's come in his place; an american mimicking a samurai, the same as you are an emperor mimicking the west. Is this what you want?"

termogard 01-04-2010 11:51 PM

just my 2 cents
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryzorian (Post 763897)
I never saw Kill Bill as a Japanese movie so eh.

You may beat me by fists and legs but Kill Bill is a pure crap. That girl armed by a sword looked like an idiot. The overall story is an example of degradation and primitivity.

termogard 01-05-2010 12:02 AM

the point
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JayT (Post 785016)
They seem to do that all the time, like they're under the impression that all Asians are the same :confused:

You are right. For a typical illiterate redneck all Asians are the same. Many movies are shot specially for that sort of viewers.....

MMM 01-05-2010 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 793498)
You are right. For a typical illiterate redneck all Asians are the same. Many movies are shot specially for that sort of viewers.....

Like what? Give some examples.

bELyVIS 01-05-2010 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 793496)
You may beat me by fists and legs but Kill Bill is a pure crap. That girl armed by a sword looked like an idiot. The overall story is an example of degradation and primitivity.

All of Tarentino's films are.

MMM 01-05-2010 02:38 AM

Let's try and get back on topic, shall we?

Ryzorian 01-05-2010 03:10 AM

I also thought Ken's Character was "The Last Samurai" Tom's character might have tried to emulate that tradition but I never saw him as the last Samurai. I do see the irony of haveing the American sitting in front of the Emperor in Ken's place. Essentially showing what the Emperor has allready lost.

As to wether anyone could be Samurai, I suppose that would depend on the times. Currently it's as likely as anyone becomeing a Knight, wich is a similer type of warrior. ( You will note I didn't say the same.) I'm also sure you will have purest who believe in strict adherance to bloodlines.

I always have some problems with that attitude, no matter what it's based on or where it's at. You cut yourself off from so much potential when you restrict yourself to just a certain bloodline, just a certain gender or just a certain race.

Honestly, perhaps the best Knight in history could be a Japanes woman or the best Samurai a Poverty stricken hillbilly from West Virginia. To restrict things is to never know the possabilities. Course, maybe deep down, that's the point...no one really wants to know the possabilities.

termogard 01-05-2010 04:35 AM

example
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM (Post 793501)
Like what? Give some examples.

For instance :

Behind Enemy Lines

The film, released by News Corporation division 20th Century Fox, features fictional news reports from Sky News, a sister company to Fox
None of the actors playing Serbians were actually Serbians; the producers said that they hired Croats to instruct the actors in bad Serbian language, because they could not find any Serbs willing to work on the film, due to anti-Serb sentiment carried through out the film. Vladimir Mashkov, the actor who played the Serbian sniper, Sasha, is Russian and Olek Krupa, the actor who played the Serbian General, Miroslav Lokar, is Polish. Also, the names of Serbian characters were not Serbian.
It was filmed in Slovakia, not Bosnia. During the shooting of the lakeside scene near the end, the countryside was unexpectedly devoid of snow. To recreate a snowy lake, the film's crew cleared part of a mountain of trees, used molten wax to create the appearance of a lake, and used paper snow to imitate real snow


Source

So, it's normal when Croats played roles of Serbs. :D And Chinese played roles of Japanese......

MMM 01-05-2010 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 793518)
For instance :

Behind Enemy Lines

The film, released by News Corporation division 20th Century Fox, features fictional news reports from Sky News, a sister company to Fox
None of the actors playing Serbians were actually Serbians; the producers said that they hired Croats to instruct the actors in bad Serbian language, because they could not find any Serbs willing to work on the film, due to anti-Serb sentiment carried through out the film. Vladimir Mashkov, the actor who played the Serbian sniper, Sasha, is Russian and Olek Krupa, the actor who played the Serbian General, Miroslav Lokar, is Polish. Also, the names of Serbian characters were not Serbian.
It was filmed in Slovakia, not Bosnia. During the shooting of the lakeside scene near the end, the countryside was unexpectedly devoid of snow. To recreate a snowy lake, the film's crew cleared part of a mountain of trees, used molten wax to create the appearance of a lake, and used paper snow to imitate real snow


Source

So, it's normal when Croats played roles of Serbs. :D And Chinese played roles of Japanese......

You specifically said "Asians" so that is what I hoped you would focus on.

Yet, if Serbians are not willing to play the roles of Serbians, then I am not sure how that is Hollywood shooting specifically for "hill billy viewers" (your words) if they cast actors from other countries rather than scrap the whole production.

Having people from one country play the role of people from other countries happens every day, and America is not the only, or even the worst offender (assuming that is an offense). A Texan plays the lead in Bridget Jones' Diary and Englishman plays the role of American superhero Batman. An American also plays British super-sleuth Sherlock Holmes, and an Australian plays a Wyoming cowboy in Brokeback Mountain.

You mention Chinese actors playing Japanese roles, and if you are talking about Memoirs of a Geisha, that was done by design. Zhang Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh are bigger draws IN JAPAN than their female Japanese counterparts.

But how about non-Hollywood productions? Rumble in the Bronx is full of all kinds of accents from the Caucasian actors...nary a one from anywhere near New York.

termogard 01-05-2010 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMM (Post 793521)
then I am not sure how that is Hollywood shooting specifically for "hill billy viewers" (your words) if they cast actors from other countries rather than scrap the whole production.

*Native viewer* could be easily offended looking how characters of his countrymen are played by foreign actors. They looks like aliens, they speak on broken language etc. *Hillbilly viewer* usually spits on details.

Another example :

I found the movie suffered big time, for me, as a geek, after our heroes launched into space. The scenes at the Mir Space Station were unnecessary, and the script made the Russian Cosmonaut look like a sitcom character, a complete buffoon who fixes everything by hammering on it. I was offended by that character, not amused. I have a lot respect for the builders and cosmonauts of the Mir Space Station, and I think they should not have been depicted as idiots.

Source

As far as I know cosmonaut Andropov was played by a foreign actor (with a definitely jewish face).:)

MMM 01-05-2010 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by termogard (Post 793523)
*Native viewer* could be easily offended looking how characters of his countrymen are played by foreign actors. They looks like aliens, they speak on broken language etc. *Hillbilly viewer* usually spits on details.

Another example :

I found the movie suffered big time, for me, as a geek, after our heroes launched into space. The scenes at the Mir Space Station were unnecessary, and the script made the Russian Cosmonaut look like a sitcom character, a complete buffoon who fixes everything by hammering on it. I was offended by that character, not amused. I have a lot respect for the builders and cosmonauts of the Mir Space Station, and I think they should not have been depicted as idiots.

Source

As far as I know cosmonaut Andropov was played by a foreign actor (with a definitely jewish face).:)

By your own quote, Serbian actors saw "Behind Enemy Lines" as an anti-Serbian movie.

You are an investor in the movie. Are you going to take your investment and flush it down the toilet because you can't find authentic Serbians willing to act in your action movie, or are you going to find people from the same region that can pull off a convincing enough acting job in the areas of the world where the movie will be marketed (i.e. NOT Serbia)?

Why don't you address my other points instead of cherry picking from another very big budget blockbuster production that has never claimed to use native actors from Russia.

I am not sure where you are going with this as, again, you use an example that is not Asian when you originally said Asians are cast for typical illiterate rednecks. I am hoping you can back this statement up.


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