Your honest opinion of these people...
 

　　　

What do they have in common?
If you know about them, what do you really think of them?

They can do what they like; it's a free world. I wouldn't date them because I don't go for guys....

When you see them on TV, which has honestly got to be multiple times a day if you watch TV for more than 5 minutes a day, do you feel kind of like they're being ridiculed more so than accepted?

I personally don't care, but I'm really just more curious from a different cultural perspective as to why it's supposed to be so comical in Japanese culture. Like the heavy one (can't think of the name) is always on comedy TV shows, and was recently ran on a SoftBank ad dressed up in a school uniform.

If you go into Donki, along with the usual costumes, you'll find costumes made for men that are like school girl outfits that come with wigs and stuff. It's supposed to be funny, but I don't get it. Not saying my humor is better, but I can't see the funniness.

I actually had the chance to meet Haruna Ai at a fashion show, and she was really cool.

Perhaps there's a significant difference in the level of homophobia among Japanese men and parading as a chick is just accepted more easily, enough so that it can be funny for a guy to show how easily he can be seen as a chick, as opposed to being seen as something shameful

I haven't seen Japanese TV all that much, but I doubt they'd be on TV if they knew they were being ridiculed, unless they like it that way or it pays well.

Possibly, but I really don't know. Like, if I were going to go to a party or something, I wouldn't walk into a store and out of all of the outfits, pick up the schoolgirl one. And at least within my circle of friends, no one is homophobic, but they'd all still just kind of be like "Dude, why are you dressed like a girl?" I can't imagine the life of the party being the guy who shows up dressed like a chick. But I don't know.

As far as seeing it on Japanese TV, I guess if that's what Japanese people find funny then that's okay. Unfortunately this comedy falls into the "beating a dead horse" category for me. Even if I found crossdressing shenanigans funny in the first place, it would have gotten old by now simply because of how much they show it on TV, like eating food and such.

I am almost positive that when they were first introduced to TV it was certainly for the shock factor.
Why they're still everywhere all the time is a bit of a mystery to me.
Then again I can say that about a lot of people on Japanese tv, the "Talents" who aren't particularly talented lol

I'd dress as a woman for a few months if it paid as well as I imagine it does, so that I wouldn't have to work for a few years after lol, I might have to take 4 showers every night but I'd totally do it!

I've wondered if it was meant to fall under the social tolerance of liberal values which are being adopted by the media in Japan, but then it just feels to me like it's doing more of a disservice to open sexuality than anything...

What I mean is,
If I were gay, seeing this on tv wouldn't make me in any way feel safer or more comfortable coming out of the closet...

"Talents" on Japanese TV are there because there is something they have about themselves that is unique. If they were on TV only to be ridiculed I would be very disturbed, but EVERYONE on TV is ridiculed save a precious few, so I don't think these people are being singled out. I am sure they are being paid and would rather be on TV than not.

It's a certain brand of humour and a certain brand of people that really work it I guess. The UK at least has had not a few celebrity transvestites (Lily Savage, Eddie Izzard, Dame Edna etc), or even women who were famous for dressing androgynously like Katherine Hepburn or that crazy model. And it's a comedy staple of pantomime, theatre, charity fun runs and Rugby club pub crawls.

Ask anyone who goes to and enthuses over Rocky Horror; it's hilarious to see a guy wear women's lingerie, funny-horrible if he does it badly and downright impressive if he does it well.

It's a kind of performance art; not to everyone's taste, but on a similar line to Hard Gay. It's shock value to a degree. Some people find Lady Gaga inspirational, some find her bafflingly ridiculous. Some people are fans of transvestite celebrities, others want to vomit at the very idea. *shrug* c'est la vie.

I totally agree, it's what I was trying to get at regarding them not seeming to be any more or less talented than any other "talents" I see on tv here..

I feel it's safe to assume that if they were exactly the same, except not cross-dressers, they wouldn't be on TV.
So it's clearly the primary reason fro them being there.
What I keep wondering is; how is that perceived by the general audience, and is it insulting behavior or liberal and modern?

I'm just still thrown off guard by it, years later, that I still can't figure it out lol

and where do you stand?
and more importantly, where do you think Japanese society stands on the topic, generally?

I can't think of any popular transvestite celebrities on American TV currently, but there is a niche for gay celebrities, as conservative as America may seem. But it's just as you described from a UK perspective, it's simply a niche that does it for some people and not for others.
However in Japan, it seems to be treated in the same regard as any other type of comedy or humor. You'll see comedy sketches and whatnot that simply throw in a transvestite and everyone just goes along with it.

From what I can gather, this conversation is more odd than cross-dressers being on Japanese TV. "How it is perceived" is they are people and they are on TV. Little more and little less.

Me? I really don't mind transvestism as a whole; it doesn't annoy or disturb me. As for those particular ones cited above, I know nothing about them so I can't really comment; For me it would depend on their personalities as to if I found them endearing or abhorrent or not, not their cross-dressing. Same with gay idols. Pineapple Dance's Louis makes me howl and smash the remote control to MAKE IT STOP GET OFF MY SCREEN JUST NO!, but I quite like John Barrowman. TBH as far as Japanese screen icons go, i'm more annoyed by that girl who eats a lot.

I think this is absolutely nothing new. Cross-dressing in the Japanese media has been going on for literally centuries; there's not really an ingrained heavy-duty historical cultural bias against it. These are basically the modern day equivalent of onnagata but (I assume) rather less artistically skilled. Considering the sheer number of anime/manga/drama/films/tv shows out there in Japan which feature one or more character cross-dressing, it's really practically common place. I distinctly recall a whole game show where the purpose was to dress high school boys up as girls and send them on little 'dates' (it was very innocent) with male talents. Malice Mizer built a career off of it. So have umptybillion Vkei artists since. Japan doesn't seem bothered by it. It's cute/funny/or just 'there' like anime is 'there' as far as different people are concerned. As MMM said, they're people on TV with a gimmick, like 90 bajillion and one other 'talents'.

Oddly, I can't see what the fuss about Japanese transvestite talents are because it's REALLY not like it's a) as i said before, anything new, or b) alien to the foreign market too. Some of the most popular anime's abroad have featured gender-bending and cross-dressing, not least including Slayers, Sailor Moon**, Naruto, Hana Yori Dango, Fruits Basket, Ouran High School Host Club, Bleach, Gravitation, One Piece and virtually anything ever by Kaori Yuki. That's just off the top of my head. The inclusion of this hasn't alienated a foreign market. Actually the only one I have literally ever heard people moaning about (Asides from crazy evangelicals) is that demon guy from.... that butler anime. Red hair. Apparently the manga-ka revealed he's a MtoF transexual, which sunk a lot of BL fandom ships and incurred fangirl outrage.

There's also western skit artists too, who frequently cross dress; Little Britain's Vicky Pollard, emily and florence derive most of their comic effect from the fact that they're played by men. David Bowie, Marlyn Manson the entirety of Queen and others besides have done it just for kicks and a big fat profit.

** Yes this was edited out in the Anime but the english language manga release had no such qualms.

/ long post is long.

I`ve always noticed that instead of just being ridiculed (like everyone else is...), there is a lot of weight given to their preferences. As if they are more cultured, fashionable, etc, than regular women. That opinion seems to carry over into the real world - if you have a lot more to cover, chances are you`re going to know a lot more about makeup and fashion.

Really though, as MMM said, it`s all about being unique. If someone has some trait that gets attention - it can be a ticket to fame. You can`t blame them for grabbing it... There is a lot of poking fun and light hearted ridicule done, but I have never seen any malicious ridicule. It`s a job, and they`re one of the bunch it seems.

The true nastiness is saved for the more "normal" talent - as being harassed is their claim to fame.

Anyway, it isn`t as if they just randomly picked people off the street to make fun of. These are people who fought their way to the top, honing their character, and who know exactly what they were getting into.

Hi RealJames,

If you had an option in the vote

• They are sometimes entertaining but not doing the honest gay community any favours

I would have voted for that one. My wife and I often watch Japanese dramas and they occasionally touch on the topic of being a gay male. (Haven't seen any gay female situations yet.) Unfortunately the image is always the same. If you dress up like a girl so that we know you are different to us then we will laugh and accept you, no problems. If you dress like a normal guy and we wouldn't know you are gay if we walked past you in the street, run for the hills! The gay characters in these dramas are often portrayed as having a 'problem' and experiencing heavy internal conflict and sometimes end up killing themselves or running away.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love Japanese dramas (apart from the more bizarre ones) but this is a theme I have seen a few times and it makes me think the idea of being a non-transvestite gay in Japan is still taboo.

i have no idea who these people are, or what they do. Are they "media relevant" somehow? By just looking at the pictures they look like funny people/comedians or such, but I wouldn't know who they are.

I am not familiar with all the talent shown, but are they transvestites or are they transgendered and/or are they gay? It's not like all these things go hand in hand 100% of the time.

Like Dame Edna is a straight man in a dress just for comedy reasons. Eddie Izzard is a transvestite - a straight male who feels more comfortable in women's clothing which he uses for his act. RuPaul is a drag queen - a gay man dressing as a woman for entertainment - no intention of ever being a woman. Model Lea T. is a transexual -a woman full time. I hate seeing all these types being lumped together as the same thing.

So are these talento shown gay men or straight men out of character? Or are they transgendered? Just want to know for the sake of this convo...:confused:

Its kind of sad to see them made a joke of but then gay/trans people on TV in the west started the same way. We've come a long way since Mr Humphries though, hopefully Japan will catch up quick and it won't take them 30 years.

Do you understand the context of what's going on here? I would not say Japan has very much "catching up" to do.

Look! Its a man...but its a woman! Hahaha!
Its Hard Gay all over again.
Japan most certainly does have catching up to do in several areas. Not just LGBT issues. Most countries have areas where they're behind the curve.

It is just different. In many ways I have found Japanese people more tolerant of non-straight people, or those with alternative lifestyles than there are in the US. Yes, Hard Gay is not a progressive example, but the American comedian Tracy Morgan just apologized for saying he would stab and kill his son if he turned out to be gay... on stage, and for laughs.

It seems to me the transgender and cross-dressing talent that appear on Japanese TV do a pretty good job of sticking up for themselves. And for the most part they aren't made fun of for being different, they are made fun of for being unique. It doesn't matter if you are gay, fat, wear glasses, dye your hair, are from a foreign country... whatever makes you unique will be a source of laughs. It isn't discrimination when everyone on stage gets it equally.

So where are the transgender and cross-dressing talent appearing daily on American TV?

No idea, I've never been to America. From what I hear from there America is also very behind things on LGBT issues however.

Behind relative to What?/Where?

It feels funny to me that anyone would call America "behind" when it comes to any humanitarian issue...
I say that because to me America feels overly sensitive to a lot of it!

Well personally I'm not too fond of homosexual...but really as long as some dude doesn't come around me and invade my personal space then I'm cool with it. To each his own really...
As for those Japanese dudes (girls) well loool that's how they make money and a lot of most likely :p

I agree. I don't know how ANYONE could accuse Japan of not being tolerant of gays of all people. They do a worse job of empowering the genders than gay people. To suggest that a country,where if they don't like you they will NOT call you gay,is homophobic is absurd.

it's getting better but it's far from a good situation here,
It's still very difficult for someone to come out here
and if they do life changes a lot

But if nobody straight is called gay,that automatically makes it better than,or at least as good as,the West. That is all. That's the biggest reason why I'm going there. It is possible to,like,live?

you're right it's not an insult here,

but,

It's considered different and strange and people tend to hide it, stay in the closet, because being different in japan is .... the nail that sticks out gets hammered down...

there is little desire to be unique

Isn't that true practically everywhere in the world?

Western Europe.

yes, it is.

I meant more so than other developed countries, enough so that it was an easily noticeable observation to me,

but it also seems to be getting better faster than other places,

as best i can tell, the stigma is with being different, not being gay.... does that make sense?

Well that does make sense but then again they won't say anything will they?

If someone feels you're strange and is uneasy associating with you, I imagine you'd prefer for them to fess up and say it to your face, rather than feeding you likes through their teeth (sorry not lies, tatemae) saying they'd love to hang out with you etc etc while thinking they don't expect to see you again

Depends on all the circumstances and everything.

There is virtually no situation where you'll get an honest opinion about something which is in any way confrontational from a Japanese person...
Even the majority of "good friends" here don't do that.

that's going slightly off topic though,

what I mean is that you won't know how people feel about you,
and sometimes it's better to know that, even if it's in a direct and hurtful way

Sometimes but I'd rather have a quiet life.